AR-1 - N688G - Pennsylvania

Steve_UK

Active Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
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Location
UK
Aircraft
I'm not a pilot but have been lucky enough to fly in Mi-24 Hind, Mi-2, Mi-17, Lynx HAS3, Gliders, GA
The FAA ASIAS shows


Date:11-JUN-22
Time:16:30:00Z
Regis#:N688G
Aircraft Make:SILVERLIGHT AVIATION
Aircraft Model:AR-1
Event Type:ACCIDENT
Highest Injury:NONE
Aircraft Missing:No
Damage:SUBSTANTIAL
LOCATION
City:BUTLER
State:PENNSYLVANIA
Country:UNITED STATES
DESCRIPTION
Description:AIRCRAFT DURING DEPARTURE EXPERIENCED BLADE FLAP CAUSING THE MAIN ROTOR TO STRIKE THE PROPELLER AND TAIL, BUTLER, PA.
INJURY DATA
Total Fatal:0
 
Another blade flap on departure. No injury, luckily.
I see a sport pilot is the owner (but not the builder).
Perhaps Abid can weigh in on this a bit once the dust has settled...
 
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Tyger, I have been taking lessons in the M24 and the takeoff position of the stick seems very different than the SC M912.

In takeoff in the SC I would have the stick all the way back and slowly move forward to allow for enough speed on takeoff. The nose would pop up suddenly so had to adjust with stick forward to get it at takeoff attitude. In the M24 seems on takeoff the stick is moved forward more to allow for appropriate takeoff speed. Didn’t feel like we kept the rotor back as far, but it is enclosed so hard to visually see it like in the SC…

Is this the same for your M16?

In the AR-1 would have to have minimum rotor rpm’s before pulling stick all the way back otherwise whack the tail top.

In any case, AR can fix it… New tail, new rotor and new prop. Wonder if mast would bend?
 
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Tyger, I have been taking lessons in the M24 and the takeoff position of the stick seems very different than the SC M912.

In takeoff in the SC I would have the stick all the way back and slowly move forward to allow for enough speed on takeoff. The nose would pop up suddenly so had to adjust with stick forward to get it at takeoff attitude. In the M24 seems on takeoff the stick is moved forward more to allow for appropriate takeoff speed. Didn’t feel like we kept the rotor back as far, but it is enclosed so hard to visually see it like in the SC…

Is this the same for your M16?

In the AR-1 would have to have minimum rotor rpm’s before pulling stick all the way back otherwise whack the tail top.

In any case, AR can fix it… New tail, new rotor and new prop. Wonder if mast would bend?

In my M-16, I hold the stick forward until 100rrpm, then pull it all the way back slowly. At 200rrpm, I let off the wheel brakes, let go the pre-rotator and gently roll in full power.

As the nose goes light, I move the stick forward a few inches, and once airborne, I move the stick forward to hold the aircraft close to the runway until the speed hits ~65mph, when I let it climb away.
 
Dave, I pretty much do it just as Schmoe describes it, above.

In the M16, you want to get it up to 100 rrpm before pulling the stick all the way back, because a strong ambient wind can cause a bit of flapping when it's less than that – so you don't want the rotor near the prop/tail just then (hint: keeping the stick forward and to the right minimizes this early flap).
On the M16, as it turns out, the rrpm is the same as the tip speed in mph (28ft x π x 60 = 5278 ft)
I usually get to 100 off to the side of the runway, then bring the stick all the way back as I turn onto the runway and into the wind. Turning into the wind usually helps spin it up up to 200 or so pretty quickly, at which point I disengage the prerotator and start my takeoff roll. Keeping the stick all the way back, I bring it to full power pretty quickly. When the nose gets light (i.e. rrpm is nearly sufficient for flying), I move the stick forward just enough to keep the nose from popping up, continuing to build airspeed while maintaining the rrpms. At that point you are trading off increasing the rrpm for increasing the airspeed. As Schmoe says, at about 65mph it just starts climbing away nicely, without any new stick input.
 
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I've been training in an M16 lately and the POH says prerotate to 120rpm before bringing the stick back.
 
Talked to the pilot. Basically doesn't exactly remember what happened which is very typical but did say he was doing Young Eagles flight and pattern was busy, started pre-rotation on the hold short line and then started the takeoff run, about 200 feet or less felt like his one tire blew out because the gyro started going to the left off the runway and then heard the bangs and cut power to stop forced off the runway 100 feet to the left of runway and saw the tires were fine and his tail had been knocked off, all 3 blades of the prop were chopped and the rotor blades at the tips had grazed the ground.
Well its a classic Blade Sailing accident and he is lucky the gyroplane did not flip over. The turning tendency was due to retreating blade stall and forward blade sailing up. His right wheel must have started to get off the ground but the wider stance of AR-1 with a softer leaf spring is a bit more forgiving and harder to completely flip over. He says the blades have some paint marks but don't look like they got dinged too bad. I will have to see pictures to determine the extent of damage. I think his view may be too optimistic
He said he was a bit distracted because he was explaining to the Young Eagles kid passenger what he was doing as he was doing it.
Classic, change of procedure from lining up with runway and do pre-rotation to start pre-rotating at hold short, distraction due to talking to the kid while all this is happening and rushed because pattern was busy, and that was all she wrote. Doesn't remember the pre-rotation RPM, doesn't really remember the stick position, doesn't remember the airspeed. Thinks the stick position was at the back.
No injuries. Glad about that
 
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Tyger, I have been taking lessons in the M24 and the takeoff position of the stick seems very different than the SC M912.

In takeoff in the SC I would have the stick all the way back and slowly move forward to allow for enough speed on takeoff. The nose would pop up suddenly so had to adjust with stick forward to get it at takeoff attitude. In the M24 seems on takeoff the stick is moved forward more to allow for appropriate takeoff speed. Didn’t feel like we kept the rotor back as far, but it is enclosed so hard to visually see it like in the SC…

Is this the same for your M16?

In the AR-1 would have to have minimum rotor rpm’s before pulling stick all the way back otherwise whack the tail top.

In any case, AR can fix it… New tail, new rotor and new prop. Wonder if mast would bend?

Minimum Rotor RPM to pull stick all the way back while having about 1 foot of clearance from the tail in AR-1 is 140 RRPM if you are not about to get a retreating blade stall (forward speed). Actually I gunned the throttle on a 914 AR-1 after abruptly pulling stick all the way back on a tarmac runway. Got warning from GWS for a bit but I could not flap/blade sail the rotor and took off. I don't recommend this (Do NOT Do THIS PLEASE) but it was test to see where limits are. Certainly not at 140 rotor RPM and certainly not enough power in 914 to overrun it even on tarmac runway.
 
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Came right out of the Magni manual! Don't know who wrote it.
 
Hope he had insurance flying young eagles even though they have some legal protection with YE. I stopped flying YE after local airport was posting in the news papers as free rides... Brings in kids who have no interest in flying since parents just want something for free...

Have to follow checklists during these events so you don't get distracted. Fellow J3 Cub flyer (where have to hand prop to start engine) accidently flooded the engine during YE event, and to clear the flood you do full throttle and bring prop through 10 times in reverse with mags off, then you can try to start it. Well, in this case he cleared the flood, but forgot to put throttle back to idle and engine started full throttle! YE kid was still in the front seat and he was out in front of the plane hand propping. Luckily it nosed into the ground and stopped.

I wouldn't recommend flying YE - not worth the liability now a days. I have flown well over 100 kids with YE. Some are great and some kids are only interested in video games and smart phones...

The kid in the back seat could have been playing with the stick on take off too.... Had an adult ex-pilot do this on me once on take-off sitting behind me. I had to tell him to let go of the stick! I found in my YE adventures had to give a good speech to the kids on what not to touch during take-offs and landings, and during take-offs and landing repeat it... I always integrated the checklists in my speeches to the kids telling them exactly what I as doing and what they shouldn't be doing since it helped keep them calm too.
 
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Hope he had insurance flying young eagles even though they have some legal protection with YE. I stopped flying YE after local airport was posting in the news papers as free rides... Brings in kids who have no interest in flying since parents just want something for free...

Have to follow checklists during these events so you don't get distracted. Fellow J3 Cub flyer (where have to hand prop to start engine) accidently flooded the engine during YE event, and to clear the flood you do full throttle and bring prop through 10 times in reverse with mags off, then you can try to start it. Well, in this case he cleared the flood, but forgot to put throttle back to idle and engine started full throttle! YE kid was still in the front seat and he was out in front of the plane hand propping. Luckily it nosed into the ground and stopped.

I wouldn't recommend flying YE - not worth the liability now a days. I have flown well over 100 kids with YE. Some are great and some kids are only interested in video games and smart phones...

Yeah, honestly this lawyer BS is starting to suck big time in the US. Growing up when I started getting interested in flying machines, I wanted to come to the US because I thought this is the place to be to fly and make flying machines. What I didn't know in mid 80's is how much US will change and how many kids will be on stupid computers and phones and social media instead of doing real stuff and how many sleazy lawyers and ambulance chasers are in the US.

BTW, talking of the J3 Cub ... I am looking for a Champ if you know anyone selling one
 
Minimum Rotor RPM to pull stick all the way back while having about 1 foot of clearance from the tail in AR-1 is 140 RRPM if you are not about to get a retreating blade stall (forward speed). Actually I gunned the throttle on a 914 AR-1 after abruptly pulling stick all the way back on a tarmac runway. Got warning from GWS for a bit but I could not flap/blade sail the rotor and took off. I don't recommend this (Do NOT Do THIS PLEASE) but it was test to see where limits are. Certainly not at 140 rotor RPM and certainly not enough power in 914 to overrun it even on tarmac runway.
Correct me if I am wrong, but on the AR-1 you cannot continue to prerotate once the stick goes back, right?
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but on the AR-1 you cannot continue to prerotate once the stick goes back, right?

You should not. It can damage the universal joint on top.
 
Sorry, para 3.10, now says 130rrpm then stick back. I have an older manual that says 120.
I'm guessing you are referring to a UK manual?
In the US, with E-ABs, the POH has to be produced by the builder, as part of the 40 hours of test flying...
 
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You should not. It can damage the universal joint on top.
Right, so your 140 number is your minimum for starting your roll. Makes sense.
In the Magni, the 100 is just to insure no flapping issues before rolling (say from a strong wind), since I can continue to prerotate to a much higher number with the stick fully back. I always want to take the rrpm much higher than that before actually rolling.
I just want to make sure others understand the distinction between minimum stick-back rrpm and rolling rrpm on Magnis.
 
Right, so your 140 number is your minimum for starting your roll. Makes sense.
In the Magni, the 100 is just to insure no flapping issues before rolling (say from a strong wind), since I can continue to prerotate to a much higher number with the stick fully back. I always want to take the rrpm much higher than that before actually rolling.
I just want to make sure others understand the distinction between minimum stick-back rrpm and rolling rrpm on Magnis.

Well its not even about rolling. Its about indicated airspeed. As soon as you turn "into the wind", that's your airspeed. If that airspeed is high and the stick is moved back basically that is the danger. If winds are gusty mainly, you should go to higher rotor RPM because in a large gust (gust spread) you can induce a flap even standing there and if stick is back, that will not be good
 
I'm guessing you are referring to a UK manual?
In the US, with E-ABs, the POH has to be produced by the builder, as part of the 40 hours of test flying...
No, sounds like you wrote your own! Good luck. Don't see how builder has any
way of knowing that this is safe or proper.
 
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