AR-1 N147AR - Florida - tail strike

Steve_UK

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I'm not a pilot but have been lucky enough to fly in Mi-24 Hind, Mi-2, Mi-17, Lynx HAS3, Gliders, GA
The latest FAA ASIAS reports the following from Brooksville, Florida on 21-10-19 for AR-1 N147AR


AIRCRAFT CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF WHEN ROTAR STRUCK THE RUDDER, BROOKSVILLE, FL.
 

fara

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Allowed the stick to come back at very low rotor RPM
 

Resasi

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Blade flap/sailing.
 

Chris Burgess

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Air traffic control can be helpful but.......... This is another I have heard about that when "cleared for takeoff", they flapped their blades. Don't let ATC intimidate you into making a "rushed" takeoff. The rotor tells you when it is ready, not air traffic control. If you need a "delay" on the runway for proper rotor spin-up, just make that clear to ATC and they will accommodate. I like to spool up to 150 or more before taking the runway. At least you are near ready. You folks that just spin to a number and 4-5 seconds to full throttle, have a little learning to do. I just say'n.
 

fara

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Air traffic control can be helpful but.......... This is another I have heard about that when "cleared for takeoff", they flapped their blades. Don't let ATC intimidate you into making a "rushed" takeoff. The rotor tells you when it is ready, not air traffic control. If you need a "delay" on the runway for proper rotor spin-up, just make that clear to ATC and they will accommodate. I like to spool up to 150 or more before taking the runway. At least you are near ready. You folks that just spin to a number and 4-5 seconds to full throttle, have a little learning to do. I just say'n.
Exactly. Cleared for immediate takeoff with another cleared to land on final does not mean you have to accept that clearance and just because you are rushed does not mean you can pull back on the stick at 100 RRPM.
 

Vance

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I will reject an "expedite takeoff" clearance from air traffic control if I have a low time client saying “unable to expedite for safety with student pilot”.

I do and say the same thing with a request for a short approach with a low time pilot.

There is already enough pressure on the student pilot without adding unnecessary drama.
 

GyrOZprey

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This was one of the scenarios /issues discussed at the recent "Master the Gyroplane" symposium at last weeks gathering at Biosphere2 AZ!

The training syllabus that has been developed by IAPGT in The Gyropedia .....IF adopted & properly applied by the majority of gyro CFI's ...should make these take-off/landing phase incidents & accidents extremely RARE! Gyropedia "best-practices" training ...uniformly adopted by ALL gyro trainer's/pilots could potentially SHOW the insurance industry that we as a community ARE willing to address the problem of these horribly high rate of rotor MIS-management problems!
 

EdResnick

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The nice thing about the AR-1 is you can pre-rotate it while taxiing. I always pre-rotate at idle rpm (so rrpm becomes 100-110) before I tell tower I'm ready for take-off, then slowly increase to 150 rpm by the time I've lined up. Then there's barely any more prerotation needed before I can go full throttle for take-off.

Taxiing onto the runway with a stationary rotor is unnecessary and foolish imo.
 

DavePA11

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Doesn’t take long to spin up rotors. I never found it to be an issue nor foolish. Some single place gyros won’t taxi straight with torque from rotors spinning up.
 

WaspAir

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For my J-2 and A&S18a operations, I always advised the tower that I would need a minute in position for rotor spin-up before departure, and they would time my clearance for line up and wait with that in mind. You can't practically taxi either one with the clutch engaged, but you could perhaps do a little spinning while sitting short of the runway, release the clutch, and then engage again when in position. The problem is that it really didn't save much time because (1) you can't get it to very high rpm safely, (2) it decays quickly, (3) you don't want to sit for long periods just keeping the blades spinning with poor cooling, and (4) for the J-2, you have to re-engage the transmission each time you release the clutch and that's tricky to do without grinding gears while the rotor is in motion.
 

Resasi

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Learn on a gyro that doesn’t have a prerotator. From pat up to shut down you keep those rotors spinning. Can be done, done it.
 

DavePA11

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Are hose like the Ford model T where you had to hand crank them to get them running? Not sure the tower would like you hand spinning the rotor before taking off. :) But 1946 J3 still can fly out of some controlled airspaces for now. I have never seen a hand propped rotor on gyro in person yet. Would be interesting. Musthave to be careful not to cause flap until rotors are spin up.
 

Resasi

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Depends on the Tower. On my first cross country the wind was completely calm, not very helpful when patting up as the rotors lost momentum as I buckled in, so as I moved off and tried to get some air through the disc the blades began flapping.

In the end the solution was to pat up as fast as I could, quickly get into the seat and move away and get up enough rotor rpm so I could stop the gyro, then fasten my harness before the rotors had slowed too much, and move off again and keep them spun up.

Luckily I had warned the tower and had waited till there was no traffic wanting to use the runway. Took almost the whole runway so then turned at the end and went off in the opposite direction. The tower was most co-operative, but it had been anticipated and arranged beforehand.
 

DavePA11

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Sounds like a lot of work. Do you fly gyro now with pre-rotator? Some of the towered airports are not as helpful...
 

Steve_UK

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like when you push a child's roundabout, as it swing around

video of hand work here

 

fara

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Hi Guys:
Appreciate the hand starting etc. discussion but we are not in a gyro where you have to pull start the engine and hand start the rotor blades.

The simple fact is the pilot pulled the stick back at 100 RRPM. This is not what what is instructed in the POH and I will be changing the POH to increase that number even further. This simple mistake will cost him thousands of dollars and there was absolutely no need for doing that.
 

Resasi

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The simple fact is the pilot pulled the stick back at 100 RRPM. This is not what what is instructed in the POH and I will be changing the POH to increase that number even further.
Nothing simple about rotor aerodynamics. If the pilot is facing into a very stiff wind the rotor RPM required in order not to incur blade flap/sail can be even higher than normal, and, also depends upon the disc angle of attack created, and the speed at which that disc angle is created.

Blade flap/sailing occurs when the rotor RPM is insufficient to cope with the amount of air being allowed to pass through the disc in any one time, ie creating too large a disc angle of attack/too rapidly at too low a rotor RPM. These are all variables and dependent upon each other.

While not disputing the need for changes in the POH, flying by numbers and instructions like ‘stick fully back at such and such a RRPM’ are not conducive to learning good rotor control, which is unfortunately, the cause of many accidents.
 
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