Any gyroplane CFIs near east TN?

13brv3

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Messages
660
Location
Tellico Plains, TN
Greetings,

Since I need a BFR in the next couple months, I thought it would be a good opportunity to get some refresher training in a gyroplane as my BFR. I have a private license for SEL with a sport pilot gyroplane rating. My understanding is that a BFR can be in any aircraft you're rated to fly, so the gyro should work. It would be nice to find someone within a few hours drive of East TN. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Rusty
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
15,825
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Piper Archer, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
Arkansas
Ron Menzie
Email Address [email protected]
Phone Number (501) 766-6456
Location Searcy

===
Indiana
Brent Drake
Email Address [email protected]
Phone Number 317 364 0289
Location Shelbyville
AirportId KGEZ
----
Indiana
Silas Smith
Email [email protected]
Phone 219 374 4604
Location Cedar Lake

 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
15,825
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Piper Archer, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
We do not have enough gyroplane CFI's.
But it is much better. I had to fly from San Diego to Utah for Training.
Since then Vance and several others CFI's are in California.
 

13brv3

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Messages
660
Location
Tellico Plains, TN
Thanks, but those are much farther than I'm looking to travel for this. I found a number of others on this page, but I'm not sure how up to date the info is. I sent an email to the guy in Madison AL Greg Clare, so we'll see if that bounces. Magni seems to have an operation in Gulf Shores AL wiht a number of pilots, and while that's not close, I'm from Pensacola, and do go back there on occasion, so that might work out. Mostly I was hoping someone had experience with someone close to east TN.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
16,810
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
Magni seems to have an operation in Gulf Shores AL wiht a number of pilots, and while that's not close, I'm from Pensacola, and do go back there on occasion, so that might work out. Mostly I was hoping someone had experience with someone close to east TN.
Mark Sprigg is an excellent flight instructor out of Gulf Shores, Alabama. I received a flight review from him a few years ago and learn something every time I visit with him. He often flies out of Pensacola, Florida and is a designated pilot examiner. (573) 837-5461.
 

13brv3

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Messages
660
Location
Tellico Plains, TN
Mark Sprigg is an excellent flight instructor out of Gulf Shores, Alabama. I received a flight review from him a few years ago and learn something every time I visit with him. He often flies out of Pensacola, Florida and is a designated pilot examiner. (573) 837-5461.
Thanks Vance! That's the sort of endorsement I was hoping for. I'm overdue for a trip down there to visit a good friend who has a hangar/residence Just down the beach from Jack Edwards. Sounds like that might work out. It would also give me a chance to fly something I can't afford :)

I have to admit that I've thought about adding gyroplane at the private pilot level at some point, but it's pretty hard to justify since I don't have any interest in any gyroplane that I can't fly with my current sport pilot rating.
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
5,060
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
You do get some altitude, visibility, night flight, and other privileges with a private rating independent of the aircraft size and complexity benefits.
 

13brv3

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Messages
660
Location
Tellico Plains, TN
I heard back from Greg Clare in Madison AL, and he seems happy to help. It looks like I probably have two options now, so I should be set. I'll likely wait until it cools off a bit, since I won't need the BFR until my Onex is ready to fly, hopefully in a couple months.

As for additional benefits to having the private rating for gyroplanes, I'm not 100% clear on the rules. For an LSA aircraft, since I have a PPL for aircraft, I know the speed and airspace limitations wouldn't apply to me. I'm not sure about night though. I'm also not sure if my PPL training for the airplane translates to eliminating speed and airspace limitations for a gyroplane. I've spent more time than I like in controlled airspace, and I'll be happy if I never talk to another tower. I haven't flown at night in a decade, so none of those things seems like much of a limitation.

Thanks,
Rusty
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
16,810
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
As for additional benefits to having the private rating for gyroplanes, I'm not 100% clear on the rules. For an LSA aircraft, since I have a PPL for aircraft, I know the speed and airspace limitations wouldn't apply to me. I'm not sure about night though. I'm also not sure if my PPL training for the airplane translates to eliminating speed and airspace limitations for a gyroplane. I've spent more time than I like in controlled airspace, and I'll be happy if I never talk to another tower. I haven't flown at night in a decade, so none of those things seems like much of a limitation.

Thanks,
Rusty
In my opinion when operating a gyroplane with a Sport Pilot, Gyroplane certificate all of the limitations apply to you regardless of other ratings held.
Below is a cut and paste from the Federal Aviation Regulations for clarity:

§ 61.315 What are the privileges and limits of my sport pilot certificate?

(a) If you hold a sport pilot certificate you may act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft, except as specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(b) You may share the operating expenses of a flight with a passenger, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenses, or aircraft rental fees. You must pay at least half the operating expenses of the flight. (c) You may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:

(1) That is carrying a passenger or property for compensation or hire.

(2) For compensation or hire.

(3) In furtherance of a business.

(4) While carrying more than one passenger.

(5) At night.

(6) In Class A airspace.

(7) In Class B, C, and D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, and to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower unless you have met the requirements specified in §61.325.

(8) Outside the United States, unless you have prior authorization from the country in which you seek to operate. Your sport pilot certificate carries the limit ‘‘Holder does not meet ICAO requirements.’’

(9) To demonstrate the aircraft in flight to a prospective buyer if you are an aircraft salesperson.

(10) In a passenger-carrying airlift sponsored by a charitable organization. (11) At an altitude of more than 10,000 feet MSL or 2,000 feet AGL, whichever is higher.

(12) When the flight or surface visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

(13) Without visual reference to the surface.

(14) If the aircraft: (i) Has a VH greater than 87 knots CAS, unless you have met the requirements of §61.327(b).

(ii) Has a VH less than or equal to 87 knots CAS, unless you have met the requirements of §61.327(a) or have logged flight time as pilot in command of an airplane with a VH less than or equal to 87 knots CAS before April 2, 2010.

(15) Contrary to any operating limitation placed on the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft being flown.

(16) Contrary to any limit on your pilot certificate or airman medical certificate, or any other limit or endorsement from an authorized instructor. (17) Contrary to any restriction or limitation on your U.S. driver’s license or any restriction or limitation imposed by judicial or administrative order when using your driver’s license to satisfy a requirement of this part.

(18) While towing any object.

(19) As a pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

[Docket No. FAA–2001–11133, 69 FR 44869, July 27, 2004, as amended by Amdt. 61–125, 75 FR 5221, Feb. 1, 2010
 
Last edited:

13brv3

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Messages
660
Location
Tellico Plains, TN
In my opinion when operating a gyroplane with a Sport Pilot, Gyroplane certificate all of the limitations apply to you regardless of other ratings held.
Below is a cut and paste from the Federal Aviation Regulations for clarity:

§ 61.315 What are the privileges and limits of my sport pilot certificate?
Your opinion is probably better than most. Fortunately, I don't imagine flying any gyro outside of the sport pilot limitations, so it's a non-issue really. Of course if refresher training, added to my original, and solo time gets me to the required min hours for a private pilot rating in gyroplanes, it would be hard to resist getting an endorsement and checkride.

Most people thought I was crazy when I got the sport pilot rating a decade ago, because back then they were not requiring category/class ratings in the experimental limitations. If you had any license you could fly any experimental aircraft back then. Of course they wised up and put the category/class limitation in all the experimental airworthiness limitations now, so I would need the gyroplane rating today.

Rusty
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
5,060
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
Under 61.303, your Private certificate may exempt you from 61.315( c) (7) and 61.315( c) (14) only (those subsections are included in Vance's post above). Without knowing your personal situation, I'll assume you might hold a private certicate with ASEL category/class rating, and a medical certificate, and a sport pilot gyro endorsement, which for flying gyroplanes would put you in the 61.303 table at the third row, 61.303(a)(1)(iii)(A)(1).

Lest there be any doubt, a sport pilot endorsement is not a category/class rating under the FARs.

You are not a sport pilot because you hold a Private certificate, but you have been endorsed for sport pilot privileges in a category / class for which you do not have a rating.
 
Last edited:

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
15,825
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Piper Archer, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
Vance & or Jon

I'm confused at a higher level and need to read it but no time right now.

Does that mean as a Private Pilot rating, when I'm endorsed for sport pilot gyroplane:
That I can fly into B airspace without a logbook entry from a CFI, using my current Private Pilot rating and using that?
Also, does that mean I can fly at night in a gyroplane when a private pilot is endorsed for sport pilot gyroplane?
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
16,810
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
Vance & or Jon

I'm confused at a higher level and need to read it but no time right now.

Does that mean as a Private Pilot rating, when I'm endorsed for sport pilot gyroplane:
That I can fly into B airspace without a logbook entry from a CFI, using my current Private Pilot rating and using that?
Also, does that mean I can fly at night in a gyroplane when a private pilot is endorsed for sport pilot gyroplane?
§61.315
(7) In Class B, C, and D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, and to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower unless you have met the requirements specified in §61.325.

§ 61.325 How do I obtain privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft at an airport within, or in airspace within, Class B, C, and D airspace, or in other airspace with an airport having an operational control tower?

If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek privileges to operate a lightsport aircraft in Class B, C, or D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, or to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower, you must receive and log ground and flight training. The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation: (a) The use of radios, communications, navigation system/facilities, and radar services.

(b) Operations at airports with an operating control tower to include three takeoffs and landings to a full stop, with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern, at an airport with an operating control tower.

(c) Applicable flight rules of part 91 of this chapter for operations in Class B, C, and D airspace and air traffic control clearances.

There is some debate about the interpretation of 61.325.

In my opinion the log book endorsement is simple enough to simply get one or in my case give one once I have landed at an airport with an operating control tower in a gyroplane with a client operating control tower in a gyroplane as a Sport Pilot, Gyroplane pilot and tested their knowledge.

It would be best to contact you Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) for an interpretation and in my experience not all FSDOs interpret the Federal Aviation Regulations the same.

You as the pilot in command are responsible for understanding the FARs so it is best to do your own research with your FSDO if you are not clear on the regulation.

You are required to have at least a current class three medical or basic med to fly at night.

The interpretation I received from my FSDO about night flight for a private pilot exercising his Sport Pilot, Gyroplane privileges is; “you may not fly at night in a gyroplane even if it is equipped for night flight. Night flight in a Gyroplane requires a Private Pilot, Rotorcraft-Gyroplane certificate or a Commercial Rotorcraft-Gyroplane certificate.”

I also received the interpretation from the same FSDO that; “the more restrictive Day VFR Sport Pilot rules also apply to a gyroplane operated by a private pilot.”

Further clarity on Sport Pilot privileges may be found in the chart in § 61.303.

It won’t print out for me so you will need to access it yourself by typing FAR 61.103 in your search engine.
 
Last edited:

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
5,060
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
All-In, you are NOT a Sport Pilot because you do not hold a sport pilot CERTIFICATE (that's a legally critical word). Be cautious when you read any section that specifically talks about "holding a sport pilot certificate". You hold a Private Pilot CERTIFICATE (and assuming a satisfactory proficiency check) you will have additional sp privileges. The sp limitations that will apply to you are set out in 61.303. That section says which sp limitations apply and which ones do not for your gyro operations. In particular, you are explicitly exempt from 61.315 (c)(7), so you can fly a gyro in Class B, C, or D airspace and at towered airports without any further training or endorsements. You are NOT exempted from 61.315(c)(6) so no night gyro flying for you until you get a Private gyro rating.

Only subsections 7 and 14 are excused for you, and the night limit is in 6 - - sorry!
 

Tyger

Super Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
1,234
Location
Germantown, NY
Aircraft
Magni M16
Total Flight Time
420
Of course if refresher training, added to my original, and solo time gets me to the required min hours for a private pilot rating in gyroplanes, it would be hard to resist getting an endorsement and checkride.
Since it would be a new category (rotorcraft) rating from that on your existing PPL, I believe you would need to fulfill all of the hour requirements for the new category/class (rotorcraft/gyroplane), i.e. 40 gyro hours, to include minimums of dual instruction and solo time, plus some XC and night flight.
14 CFR § 61.63(b)(1)

If you were just adding a class rating, within a category, you would NOT need to fulfill the hour requirements. 14 CFR § 61.63(c)(3)
 
Last edited:

Chuck Roberg

Gyro's are more fun
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
3,542
Location
Naperville, IL
Aircraft
SnoBird Tandem Gyro, Robinson R-22, Assorted Fixed Wing
Total Flight Time
2200
To add a rotorcraft/gyroplane rating to a PPL FAR 61.109d states the needed hours.

* 3 hours cross country flight training (dual instruction) in a Gyroplane.

* 3 hours of night flight training (dual instruction) in a Gyroplane with one cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

* 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a Gyroplane, which must have been performed within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.

* 10 hours of solo flight time in a Gyroplane, consisting of at least - 3 hours of cross-country time. One solo cross-country flight of over 75 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations. And, three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

So adding up the above hours for a total of 19 hours.
 

13brv3

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2003
Messages
660
Location
Tellico Plains, TN
The way I read it was 40 total and 20 dual while satisfying all the specified mins for night, cross country, etc. This is in a gyroplane, so airplane time wouldn't count. That's how I read it anyway. Of course I have just over 10 hrs dual with a CFI for the sport pilot endorsement, and if I get a few as a refresher, then start flying a gyro again solo, I'd really only be looking at 7+ hours of dual for PPL in gyroplanes. Still, there's exactly zero reason why I'd do this, other than for the heck of it. I will say that Magni place in Gulf Shores AL is looking pretty good, since it's a really familiar area.
 

Tyger

Super Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
1,234
Location
Germantown, NY
Aircraft
Magni M16
Total Flight Time
420
To add a rotorcraft/gyroplane rating to a PPL FAR 61.109d states the needed hours.
Yes, that's if your PPL is in an airplane, which is a different category, so 61.63(b) applies. (1) Must complete the training and have the applicable aeronautical experience [61.109].

If your PPL is for the same category (i.e. if you had helicopter on your PPL), you would not need any of those hours for a gyro. Or if you were adding another airplane class to your airplane category PPL, same thing. These fall under 61.63(c): (3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part [61.109] that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought."
This also means if you do add rotorcraft category to your PPL with a gyro, you won't need as many (really expensive) helicopter hours to get the heli (class) add-on to it! So that in itself might be a good reason to now add rotorcraft category (gyro) to your PPL. :cool:

Mark Sprigg is a great guy and has a nice operation down in Gulf Shores, with several instructors. Mark actually gave me my PPL check ride.
Jack Edwards is a crazy-busy untowered airport, though, wow. Crossing runways, and aircraft taking off and landing on three of the four when I was there. I hear they are building a control tower there now, finally.

PS It looks like the tower is scheduled to open next month, thanks partly to funding from the "Coronavirus Aid & Relief" act (!)
 
Last edited:
Top