Another Cavalon

[TyroGyro]

Good discussion.

We are touching on some of the points I made at the start of the
https://www.rotaryforum.com/threads...is-there-anything-we-can-do-about-it.1146770/ thread.

Non-fatal and fatal accidents have distinctly different characteristics in how the gyro gets destroyed.

But they may have the same underlying human causes...

 

[rcflier]

Hmm, since the Magni M16 can have a somewhat safer take-off because of the flex axle giving a two step prerotation,
would it be possible to replace the u-joint system with a flex cable on an MTO so it can enjoy the benefit?
Just for piece of mind - preventing a brain fart with fixed-wing behaviour creeping in....

 

[Greg Vos]

Hmm, since the Magni M16 can have a somewhat safer take-off because of the flex axle giving a two step prerotation,
would it be possible to replace the u-joint system with a flex cable on a MTO so it can enjoy the benefit?
Just for piece of mind - preventing a brain fart with fixed-wing behaviour creeping in....

Yes …I fly a older xenon, they used to come out with the u joint drive shaft system, easily modified to the flexible shaft cable drive enabling us to pre rotate just like the Magni …we never pre rotate faster than Rrpm 170 and then have stick aft as the rotor builds up speed here are a few pics showing the easy mod

 

[Andino]

Hmm, since the Magni M16 can have a somewhat safer take-off because of the flex axle giving a two step prerotation,
would it be possible to replace the u-joint system with a flex cable on an MTO so it can enjoy the benefit?
Just for piece of mind - preventing a brain fart with fixed-wing behaviour creeping in....

It's probably technically possible, but you are on your own. AG themselves will likely never revise their systems unless an MPD forces them. How they got their tinsel toys past our Section T is beyond me. AG are the most willfully blind aviation company I've ever seen. Arrogant, too. Example: one of their three founders using rotor blades for nearly 4,000 hours without any evidence of frequent inspection. Completely barkers. Had that blade not departed last summer, he'd still be flying on them. And that was the behaviour of Europe's most experienced gyroplane CFI with 11,000 hours and 48,000 take-offs. Kiggen was alternating that day with two students, and had just flown the first one, but killed the second one shortly thereafter.

It's encouraging that you are pondering how to make your MTO a safer machine. The factory surely isn't. Sorry to have a strop, but I didn't sleep very well last night. Good day.

 

[Abid]

Hmm, since the Magni M16 can have a somewhat safer take-off because of the flex axle giving a two step prerotation,
would it be possible to replace the u-joint system with a flex cable on an MTO so it can enjoy the benefit?
Just for piece of mind - preventing a brain fart with fixed-wing behaviour creeping in....

Or just learn to fly and don’t go back to become an airplane pilot when something distracts you for a bit.
I am not sure flexshaft really makes it safer. Basically you can also forget to pull stick all the way with it.
In new MTO where you can pre-rotate to 300 rotor RPM then at that RPM you don’t the stick back all the way anyway. You pull it past neutral otherwise the drag is too great and you won’t accelerate forward and decay too much. You have to learn the technique suitable of the machine. You would expect to takeoff a taildragger like a 152 you first flew in. It will crash in no time. Same idea.

ELA uses the same type of system and how many ELA do you hear flapped rotor blades on takeoff. If we want to just go anecdotal evidence ELA is just as good as Magni in this respect. It’s not the machine. It’s the pilot and it’s their inadequate training. This only happens to rookie gyro pilots from what I can see and it tells me that they simply revert back to doing an airplane takeoff. Their training was not enough.

 

[gyrojockey]

interesting video on the pre rotate & takeoff sequence

 

[WaspAir]

Don't other gyro pilots use pre-takeoff checklists that reinforce the procedure to be followed, just before performing them?

One ought to do SOMETHING mental each time, at least to prepare for one's emergency options under the particular conditions that day, and if it helps establish the mindset for class-category, so much the better.

Airplane and helicopter habits are very different (compare low rpm warning horn response to stall warning horn response as one important example) but you don't hear much about pilots falling back to the wrong set in that context.

 

[DavePA11]

WaspAir, Interesting question. I created my own checklist for the SC M912. That might be something for an instructor to cover having their students provide checklist for the new gyro they plan to transition too after sign-off to solo assuming it’s different for the one being trained in.

I created one to remind me to disable the rotor break before the pre-rotor spin up and takeoff. There were no lights indicating it was engaged and it was under the seat so had to feel for it. If the rotor brake was engaged and started to spin up the rotor it would vibrate slightly initially, but otherwise it would spin up fine so hard to tell on the SC I flew. The checklist had multiple times to check that the rotor brake was disengaged. Before pre-rotate, before take-off and climb out.

Maybe we can start a new thread to post checklists for different gryo types/models?

 

[Vance]

I feel check lists have real value and encourage people to use a check lists for everything.

Most Pilot’s Operating Handbooks I have seen have check lists for operations.

I encourage people to add to the check lists to personalize them.

For a check list to have value it must be used carefully and consistently.

The Practical Test Standards for Sport Pilot-Gyroplane are specific about the use of check lists being a required standard for most operations.

 

[Andino]

Or just learn to fly and don’t go back to become an airplane pilot when something distracts you for a bit.
I am not sure flexshaft really makes it safer. Basically you can also forget to pull stick all the way with it.

ELA uses the same type of system and how many ELA do you hear flapped rotor blades on takeoff. If we want to just go anecdotal evidence ELA is just as good as Magni in this respect. It’s not the machine. It’s the pilot and it’s their inadequate training. This only happens to rookie gyro pilots from what I can see and it tells me that they simply revert back to doing an airplane takeoff. Their training was not enough.

Abid, I also noticed fewer blade-sailing take-off accidents in ELAs, despite their very similar AutoGyro prerotation system and procedure. You raise a valid point there, yet are AG flight schools and their CFIs so universally lax to explain the AG:Magni disparity? This would be quite an indictment. It seems worth pondering.

Of course, anything can be learned to be flown, no matter how wonky, but it's probably time to retire the ovoid tyre unicycle technology.


Thank you for that video link, gyrojockey. At 2:51 in, Ron Menzie explains:

"Once you've reached the proper prerotation RPM [from a flat disc], then you move the cyclic all the way back, and then you start your forward roll down the runway."

This is generally what one would do in an RAF, Sparrowhawk, or Magni. (Ron used to instruct often in RAFs, correct?)
However, in his MTOsport, he prerotates with forward stick to 225, then moves the stick back as he begins his take-off roll. Spot on from the POH.

I wonder if he realises that he described one technique ("Method 1" per Abid) yet demonstrated another ("Method 2")? This could cause confusion for a new student. Cheers, good night.

 

[Greg Vos]

Abid, I also noticed fewer blade-sailing take-off accidents in ELAs, despite their very similar AutoGyro prerotation system and procedure. You raise a valid point there, yet are AG flight schools and their CFIs so universally lax to explain the AG:Magni disparity? This would be quite an indictment. It seems worth pondering.

Of course, anything can be learned to be flown, no matter how wonky, but it's probably time to retire the ovoid tyre unicycle technology.


Thank you for that video link, gyrojockey. At 2:51 in, Ron Menzie explains:



This is generally what one would do in an RAF, Sparrowhawk, or Magni. (Ron used to instruct often in RAFs, correct?)
However, in his MTOsport, he prerotates with forward stick to 225, then moves the stick back as he begins his take-off roll. Spot on from the POH.

I wonder if he realises that he described one technique ("Method 1" per Abid) yet demonstrated another ("Method 2")? This could cause confusion for a new student. Cheers, good night.

What is an AG flight school? I’m a flight instructor…rated to train on various aircraft …each have there own quirks your comment is confusing me I teach a type rating and I teach and demonstrate what is needed I’m not affiliated to a perticular make …. I can and do demonstrate various take of and landing techniques on the aircraft

 

[TyroGyro]

Abid, I also noticed fewer blade-sailing take-off accidents in ELAs, despite their very similar AutoGyro prerotation system and procedure.

Non-fatal accidents are so patchily reported that it is impossible to draw such conclusions between manufacturers.

Anyhow, here's an in-depth analysis - by the pilot - of an accident to an ELA.

A different spin on take-off | Flight Safety Australia

By Richard Arnot An experienced fixed-wing pilot underestimates the subtle differences between aeroplane and gyrocopter handling. It was going to be easy to learn to fly a gyrocopter; I had flown fixed-wing for over 50 of my 68 years and had knocked up almost 2000 hours in a variety of Chipmun

www.flightsafetyaustralia.com

 

[Tyger]

That's an interesting article, but does everyone (anyone?) agree with this statement??
"I dislike unsolved mysteries, and it took a while and many discussions with other pilots and instructors to arrive at a logical explanation for what had happened. Blade-flap (hinging) should not be possible at rotor 250rpm due to the centrifugal force acting on the rotor"

 

[WaspAir]

Apparent centifugal forces determine rigidity and coning under load of a rotor. Translational airspeed will determine retreating blade stall.

 

[Abid]

Non-fatal accidents are so patchily reported that it is impossible to draw such conclusions between manufacturers.

Anyhow, here's an in-depth analysis - by the pilot - of an accident to an ELA.

A different spin on take-off | Flight Safety Australia

By Richard Arnot An experienced fixed-wing pilot underestimates the subtle differences between aeroplane and gyrocopter handling. It was going to be easy to learn to fly a gyrocopter; I had flown fixed-wing for over 50 of my 68 years and had knocked up almost 2000 hours in a variety of Chipmun

www.flightsafetyaustralia.com

Quote from pilot's blog:
"The final factor was having virtually no headwind on take-off, compared with a headwind (of say 10 knots) that would not have allowed the aircraft to accelerate as rapidly."

What is wrong with the above sentence that a 50 year pilot with 2000 hours should never have said.
Your airspeed indicator and your aircraft and gyroplane rotor disc have no clue about headwind, tailwind, your ground speed or anything else except airspeed. Airspeed is airspeed with or without headwind. It is exactly too much airspeed through the rotor disc at a low RPM that cause a flap. Headwind increases your airspeed from "go". His thinking is still attached to the ground after 50 years of flying and 2000 hours. These very basic conceptual errors will get you as a pilot sooner or later. The basics have to be crystal clear and clean mentally and conceptually.

I do not think he really flapped/sailed the rotors. I think he took off and got behind the curve and landed back very nose high and smacked the rotors right into the ground.

In no wind, at 250 rotor RPM stick full back (on ELA that's 20 degrees) on tarmac even with gunning the throttle on a 914 gyro you'd have a very hard time outrunning the rotors. Never say never but I couldn't do that from 160 in AR-1. Something doesn't fit. Actually having headwind would be worse for flapping. Centrifugal force is pretty well done at 100 rotor RPM. Its not likely to do anything significant after that. After that its aerodynamics taking the lead. In his view his instructors were good and they may well be but its also looking like they never properly made him understand what blade sailing is and why it happens so there is that. Keeps pointing to instruction again and again. Many instructors are good on the ground school theory and many are good hands on and you need one that is good at both and strikes a balance. In his case, I would have to start with with 20 knot headwind what would your airspeed indicator read and what airspeed would your rotor disc see/experience without moving even one inch.

 

[Vance]

That's an interesting article, but does everyone (anyone?) agree with this statement??
"I dislike unsolved mysteries, and it took a while and many discussions with other pilots and instructors to arrive at a logical explanation for what had happened. Blade-flap (hinging) should not be possible at rotor 250rpm due to the centrifugal force acting on the rotor"

In my opinion what he is calling blade flap can happen at 250 rotor rpm.

I don't understand how centrifugal force acting on the rotor can stop blade flap (blade sailing) as I understand it.

It appears to me from his story he doesn't understand what causes "blade flap" or what it is.

I feel Richard's conclusion about what happened may be correct.

In my words; he let the nose come up too far and lifted off at too low an indicated airspeed settling back down with the nose high enough to hit the blades hit first at the rear of the gyroplane.

 

[Abid]

Abid, I also noticed fewer blade-sailing take-off accidents in ELAs, despite their very similar AutoGyro prerotation system and procedure. You raise a valid point there, yet are AG flight schools and their CFIs so universally lax to explain the AG:Magni disparity? This would be quite an indictment. It seems worth pondering.

Of course, anything can be learned to be flown, no matter how wonky, but it's probably time to retire the ovoid tyre unicycle technology.


Thank you for that video link, gyrojockey. At 2:51 in, Ron Menzie explains:



This is generally what one would do in an RAF, Sparrowhawk, or Magni. (Ron used to instruct often in RAFs, correct?)
However, in his MTOsport, he prerotates with forward stick to 225, then moves the stick back as he begins his take-off roll. Spot on from the POH.

I wonder if he realises that he described one technique ("Method 1" per Abid) yet demonstrated another ("Method 2")? This could cause confusion for a new student. Cheers, good night.

I honestly do believe at least in the US Magni instructors are better. The reason is simple. Magni has been in the US market for many years. So they have had a lot of time selecting and training. They didn’t sell much but who they selected to be their instructors over time was a better selection than AutoGyro who came later and sold more quickly. Then you get what you get and it takes time to filter. The result is non thorough training and inconsistent training.
Partly it also depends on the person giving checkride. If you don’t ask to be shown a abort takeoff in the checkride, you can pass someone who never ever actually practiced aborting a takeoff. If the pilot on checkride starts to pull stick back to abort and you have to stop him. You know he is weak in this area and fail him. Because as we see the alternative is rolled over damaged machines with an increase in insurance.

However even that may not catch all. Phil Bennet is right. If they are starting their takeoff run with stick all the way forward they aren’t managing anything let alone the rotor. Their mind is a blank slate. They are just riding it. They in short have lost the plot and not fit to be PIC at that time. To stop a percentage of them from totaling their machines, something like the GWS is a good tool. It gives them a reminder to cut it out.

 

[Tyger]

I do not think he really flapped/sailed the rotors. I think he took off and got behind the curve and landed back very nose high and smacked the rotors right into the ground.

I think you are right, and I think this speaks to Phil's issues with a "cranked" keel.
It would be very hard to lift off that nose high with a straight keel. If you tried, you'd bang the tail (which would put that nose right back down) before the blades could ever hit the ground to the rear.

 

[Philbennett]

I think you are right, and I think this speaks to Phil's issues with a "cranked" keel.
It would be very hard to lift off that nose high with a straight keel. If you tried, you'd bang the tail (which would put that nose right back down) before the blades could ever hit the ground to the rear.

Yep. It saved this guy [at 2m 21s]

 

[Abid]

I think you are right, and I think this speaks to Phil's issues with a "cranked" keel.
It would be very hard to lift off that nose high with a straight keel. If you tried, you'd bang the tail (which would put that nose right back down) before the blades could ever hit the ground to the rear.

Yes at the cost of soft field takeoff. It’s trying to proof from bad pilots while punishing the reasonably competent ones and restricting something a reasonable pilot is able to do taking advantage of the cranked keel. It also has the effect of not being able to perform zero roll landings in no wind conditions specially on tarmac. It becomes more difficult to do.
Nothing is ever free. If you took off like that in an airplane, what would happen? Stall for sure and a crash. No different. Airplanes can generally rotate way more than any cranked keel Gyroplane.

At some point you simply have to accept, flying isn’t for everyone. BTW, despite a straight keel of Magni, there are accidents with behind the power curve on them right on or shortly after takeoff