Airplane CFI has caught gyro fever

flyinglow

Newbie
Joined
Oct 25, 2022
Messages
16
Location
Sacramento, California
Aircraft
Mooney 201
Total Flight Time
Airplane: 3800, Gyroplane: 1
Hey all,

I've been an airplane pilot for 25 years and an airplane CFII for almost 20 years. I've owned my Mooney 201 forever and have recently been infected with gyro fever after a couple of introductory flights. I had a really enjoyable flight in a Cavalon and was starting to explore various enclosed options. Then I met my an airport neighbor who owns a Magni M-16 and was kind enough to take me for a ride and let me have some stick time too. Once I experienced the joy of open-cockpit flight, I abandoned my research into enclosed gyros.

I've been browsing through this forum and watching tons of videos on YouTube to learn about all things gyroplane. I think the only cure for my gyro fever may be ownership, so I'm starting to seriously look in to that.

Phil
 
Hey all,

I've been an airplane pilot for 25 years and an airplane CFII for almost 20 years. I've owned my Mooney 201 forever and have recently been infected with gyro fever after a couple of introductory flights. I had a really enjoyable flight in a Cavalon and was starting to explore various enclosed options. Then I met my an airport neighbor who owns a Magni M-16 and was kind enough to take me for a ride and let me have some stick time too. Once I experienced the joy of open-cockpit flight, I abandoned my research into enclosed gyros.

I've been browsing through this forum and watching tons of videos on YouTube to learn about all things gyroplane. I think the only cure for my gyro fever may be ownership, so I'm starting to seriously look in to that.

Phil
That's great Phil. There's a wealth of information on this forum. Many of the participants here are very knowledgeable and willing to share.

Jim
 
Hey all,

I've been an airplane pilot for 25 years and an airplane CFII for almost 20 years. I've owned my Mooney 201 forever and have recently been infected with gyro fever after a couple of introductory flights. I had a really enjoyable flight in a Cavalon and was starting to explore various enclosed options. Then I met my an airport neighbor who owns a Magni M-16 and was kind enough to take me for a ride and let me have some stick time too. Once I experienced the joy of open-cockpit flight, I abandoned my research into enclosed gyros.

I've been browsing through this forum and watching tons of videos on YouTube to learn about all things gyroplane. I think the only cure for my gyro fever may be ownership, so I'm starting to seriously look in to that.

Phil
Welcome Phil.

Since you are a CFII in airplanes, and serious in flying gyroplanes, my suggestion is to jump right in and start with an add-on Commercial Rotorcraft Category, Gyroplane Class rating. After that, then add a Gyroplane CFI.

Wayne
 
Welcome Phil.

Since you are a CFII in airplanes, and serious in flying gyroplanes, my suggestion is to jump right in and start with an add-on Commercial Rotorcraft Category, Gyroplane Class rating. After that, then add a Gyroplane CFI.

Wayne

That does not work. He is an airplane CFI not Helicopter. He has to first get Sport or Private Gyroplane rating, then Sport CFI or Regular CFI for gyroplane. If regular CFI for gyroplane then he needs required time and needs commercial. Read the regs. You can only do add-on if you already have that category and only doing class add-on. Airplanes are completely different category.

In my opinion in the US market there is hardly any advantage of having a regular gyroplane CFI. 98% of the market is Sport Pilot if not more. Not many are looking to fly at night and there is no real commercial work available for gyroplanes and won't be in the US any time soon.
My advise would be to become a Sport or Private pilot Gyroplane and get 80 to 100 hours and then train to become Sport CFI. If later he finds the need to become subpart H CFI, the experience, time and training all count. They are not wasted.

Also remember the way the rules are setup; a regular CFI cannot train and recommend someone for Sport CFI gyroplane till they have 24 calendar months and 200 hours (as flight instructor) on them whereas a Sport CFI can the very next week after getting his Sport CFI ticket. This is not limited to gyroplanes either. It is the case with other categories as well. And do not say that does not make sense. Stop using the S word when FAA lawyers are concerned. They miss things many times

14 CFR 61.195h(ii)(2)
"(2) Except for an instructor who meets the requirements of paragraph (h)(3)(ii) of this section, a flight instructor who provides training to an initial applicant for a flight instructor certificate must -

(i) Meet the eligibility requirements prescribed in § 61.183 of this part;

(ii) Hold the appropriate flight instructor certificate and rating;

(iii) Have held a flight instructor certificate for at least 24 months;

(iv) For training in preparation for an airplane, rotorcraft, or powered-lift rating, have given at least 200 hours of flight training as a flight instructor; and"

No such restriction is there for a Sport CFI recommending and training another Sport CFI
 
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That does not work. He is an airplane CFI not Helicopter. He has to first get Sport or Private Gyroplane rating, then Sport CFI or Regular CFI for gyroplane. If regular CFI for gyroplane then he needs required time and needs commercial. Read the regs. You can only do add-on if you already have that category and only doing class add-on. Airplanes are completely different category.
No.

Since he is a commercial pilot, he can skip sport, recreational, and private ratings and go directly to commercial rating in a new category. It is not a "train to proficiency" process like a class add-on, but there is no need to work up through all the certificate levels. When I added LTA category to my ticket, I went straight to commercial, and never held a private balloon rating.

There are other big errors I will comment on below.
 
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In my opinion in the US market there is hardly any advantage of having a regular gyroplane CFI. 98% of the market is Sport Pilot if not more. Not many are looking to fly at night and there is no real commercial work available for gyroplanes and won't be in the US any time soon.
My advise would be to become a Sport or Private pilot Gyroplane and get 80 to 100 hours and then train to become Sport CFI. If later he finds the need to become subpart H CFI, the experience, time and training all count. They are not wasted.
Thanks so much for the thorough reply, Abid. I completely agree and this is what I was thinking already. It doesn't seem like there's much advantage in becoming a regular gyroplane CFI. The path I was thinking of taking was Sport Pilot Gyroplane, then after some experience, Sport Pilot CFI. Like you said, I can always upgrade later if needed, but I don't see much benefit to advancing my gyroplane ratings beyond the Sport Pilot level.
Also remember the way the rules are setup; a regular CFI cannot train and recommend someone for Sport CFI gyroplane till they have 24 calendar months and 200 hours (as flight instructor) on them whereas a Sport CFI can the very next week after getting his Sport CFI ticket.
Wow! I hadn't read the regs on this point in detail. That's pretty surprising. I have trained other CFIs, and I think the FAA rule to require 24 months and 200 instructional hours before doing that is well founded. I was in no way qualified to train another CFI when the ink on my ticket was still wet. There are some things you just have to learn from experience.
 
Since he is a commercial pilot, he can skip sport, recreational, and private ratings and go directly to commercial rating in a new category. It is not a "train to proficiency" like a class add-on, but there is no need to work up through all the certificate levels. When I added LTA category yo my ticket, I went straight to commercial, and never held a private balloon rating.
I believe this is correct based on FAR 61.63 where I would be adding an additional aircraft category (rotorcraft) and class (gyroplane). So I would need to complete the training required for a commercial rotorcraft-gyroplane pilot and then pass a practical test. That last part seems like a sticking point since I understand there are only 4 gyroplane DPEs in the US right now. Is that correct?

As I said above, I think I'll probably just stick at the Sport Pilot Gyroplane level until I see a need to advance beyond that. I would certainly enjoy training to higher levels of proficiency.
 
Slow down - some of this stuff is not correct.

First, any full CFI has the right to exercise ALL sport CFI privileges under 61.429, and can recommend initial sport CFI candidates to the same extent as a sport-only instructor. The full CFI has all the sport privileges and more.

Next, IMHO, many Sport-CFIs are incompetent and the whole scheme is a threat to aviation safety. If you want to learn the most, fly well, and teach well, the extra requirements of the Commercial/full CFI rating are well worth the effort. The sport scheme worries me as an invitation to a system with the blind leading the blind, producing inbred and increasing incompetence over generations of instructors and students.

I fear that too many sport CFIs don't realize the depth of their own ignorance, especially in aerodynamics.
 
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First, any full CFI has the right to exercise ALL sport CFI privileges under 61.429, and can recommend initial sport CFI candidates to the same extent as a sport-only instructor. The full CFI has all the sport privileges and more.
If I hold the appropriate ratings on my CFI certificate. My CFI certificate says "airplane single-engine land, instrument airplane". I am not authorized to give instruction for aircraft other categories and classes.

FAR 61.429 has some exemptions for someone holding "a flight instructor certificate, a commercial pilot certificate with an airship rating, or a commercial pilot certificate with a balloon rating". I don't see anything that says I can start teaching gyroplane pilots with my airplane CFI certificate.

Next, IMHO, many Sport-CFIs are incompetent and the whole scheme is a threat to aviation safety.
The dirty little secret is that many full CFIs are incompetent too.
If you want to learn the most, fly well, and teach well, the extra requirements of the Commercial/full CFI rating are well worth the effort.
I'm up for the additonal training for sure. Finding airplane DPEs with reasonable availability is hard enough. With only 4 gyroplane DPEs in the US, and none near me in northern California, this is a significant hurdle.
 
Good Morning Flyinglow.
What you are missing is the four Designated Pilot Examiners are not that busy.
My clients who have needed a DPE have not had to wait very long if they were willing to travel unless they had some special requirement.
I wish you all the best on your aviation adventure.
 
Hey all,

I've been an airplane pilot for 25 years and an airplane CFII for almost 20 years. I've owned my Mooney 201 forever and have recently been infected with gyro fever after a couple of introductory flights. I had a really enjoyable flight in a Cavalon and was starting to explore various enclosed options. Then I met my an airport neighbor who owns a Magni M-16 and was kind enough to take me for a ride and let me have some stick time too. Once I experienced the joy of open-cockpit flight, I abandoned my research into enclosed gyros.

I've been browsing through this forum and watching tons of videos on YouTube to learn about all things gyroplane. I think the only cure for my gyro fever may be ownership, so I'm starting to seriously look in to that.

Phil

There are 3 of us with M-16s at Lincoln (KLHM,) an instructor with an M-16 at Cameron Park (O61,) and M-16 up at Auburn (KAUN) and an occasional instructor with an M-16 at Watts-Woodland (O41.)

We at Lincoln tend to try and fly at least once per weekend, you're welcome to meet up with us :)
 
If I hold the appropriate ratings on my CFI certificate. My CFI certificate says "airplane single-engine land, instrument airplane". I am not authorized to give instruction for aircraft other categories and classes.

FAR 61.429 has some exemptions for someone holding "a flight instructor certificate, a commercial pilot certificate with an airship rating, or a commercial pilot certificate with a balloon rating". I don't see anything that says I can start teaching gyroplane pilots with my airplane CFI certificate.
You misunderstood me. Abid said that a full gyroplane CFI must wait two years and have 200 hours of instruction given before endorsing an initial sport CFI-gyro, while a sport CFI-gyro can do that with the ink still wet on his sport CFI certificate.

"Also remember the way the rules are setup; a regular CFI cannot train and recommend someone for Sport CFI gyroplane till they have 24 calendar months and 200 hours (as flight instructor) on them whereas a Sport CFI can the very next week after getting his Sport CFI ticket"

I said that's not true, because a full gyro CFI has all the privileges of a sport gyro CFI under 61.429; there is nothing that a sport CFI can do that an appropriately rated full CFI cannot.

I never suggested that you can instruct outside your ratings.
 
If there is no available DPE, you may also be able to get an FAA Inspector. I did that for my helicopter CFI-I ride (and there was no fee for him or his travel, because he's on the taxpayers' payroll).
 
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There are 3 of us with M-16s at Lincoln (KLHM,) an instructor with an M-16 at Cameron Park (O61,) and M-16 up at Auburn (KAUN) and an occasional instructor with an M-16 at Watts-Woodland (O41.)

We at Lincoln tend to try and fly at least once per weekend, you're welcome to meet up with us :)
Awesome! I'm at Watts-Woodland, and my Magni M-16 ride was from the occasional instructor that you mentioned. I would most definitely like to take you up on the offer to meet you at Lincoln for one of your regular weekend flights.
 
You misunderstood me. Abid said that a full gyroplane CFI must wait two years and have 200 hours of instruction given before endorsing an initial sport CFI-gyro, while a sport CFI-gyro can do that with the ink still wet on his sport CFI certificate.

"Also remember the way the rules are setup; a regular CFI cannot train and recommend someone for Sport CFI gyroplane till they have 24 calendar months and 200 hours (as flight instructor) on them whereas a Sport CFI can the very next week after getting his Sport CFI ticket"

I said that's not true, because a full gyro CFI has all the privileges of a sport gyro CFI under 61.429; there is nothing that a sport CFI can do that an appropriately rated full CFI cannot.

I never suggested that you can instruct outside your ratings.

That is absolutely true and tested with AFS610. I mean I quoted the regulation for this.

When you become a sub part H Gyroplane CFI you literally have to wait 24 months and have trained people for 200 hours before you can train an initial Sport CFI or regular CFI candidate.

Call AFS 610 or write to them and ask. Mike Sees is the guy to ask and before him was Edsel Ford but he retired recently. Been there, dine that and got the T shirt or in this case a dose of reality. Dr. Nicholas Ladas became sub-part H CFI and found out the hard way he could not begin training a Sport CFI candidate for 2 years.
What may be different in this/his case is that he is already a CFI for airplanes so that time may count for him but the only interpretation that matters is the one from FAA and that is where this question should go with his scenario. I know the answer if someone just became a sub-part H CFI without being a CFI before. The answer to that is a clear wait for 2 years and get 200 hours of training students under your belt first.
But for some reason they deliberately skipped that for 61.4xx (Sport or sub-part k CFI) rules. Sub-part H CFIs are limited by 61.195 as the wording of the lawyers says flight instructor which could be either type. Without changing that wording according to FAA, we are stuck with it. Sub-part K CFIs do not work at all with 61.195 and it does not pertain to them. So unintended consequence of rule wording is they can do something that sub-part H CFI cannot today. This has been the case for a long time. They plan to fix it in next revision.
 
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No.

Since he is a commercial pilot, he can skip sport, recreational, and private ratings and go directly to commercial rating in a new category. It is not a "train to proficiency" process like a class add-on, but there is no need to work up through all the certificate levels. When I added LTA category to my ticket, I went straight to commercial, and never held a private balloon rating.

There are other big errors I will comment on below.

Sorry. You are correct in that he can go for commercial, does not need to take a written but still needs training and hours in category and class though those hours are reduced. Needs to pass a practical test. I believe this is in Appendix I to Part 141
But he can simply add-on sport pilot, fly PIC in gyroplane and gain some competence and go train and add-on sub-part K or Sport CFI.
 
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Sorry. You are correct in that he can go for commercial, does not need to take a written but still needs training and hours in category and class though those hours are reduced. Needs to pass a practical test. I believe this is in Appendix I to Part 141
FAR 61.63 has the details on adding a category and class rating to an existing pilot certificate, which is what this would be if I decided I wanted to be a commercial rotorcraft gyroplane pilot.

Part 141 is about flight schools with FAA-approved training programs which allows them to have different experience requirements for their students. That wouldn't apply here.
 
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