Air Worthiness Certificate

Sv.grainne

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Can anyone explain the process to obtain an AWC on a single place gyro and getting a license to fly it?

I'm training in a 2 place machine but can't solo the CFI gyro, in order to fly the machine I've been told the machine has to have 40 hrs on it but that I can't solo in the machine or fly off the 40 hrs.

Whole process seems very confusing.

Was also told that the kit I build has to be US Certified. How can I confirm this?

Bobby
 

hillberg

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Had that with experimental helicopters - To fly off the hours you needed a minimum private pilot rating. After the 40 hours were logged you then fly the machine as a solo/student pilot. Rotorway used to train builders into pilots and had an FAA understanding with their system of training/assembly. Even Rotorway would test /inspect through a network of owners and builders. Impressive.
Got to find a rated pilot for your 40 test phase.
FAA issues the Airworthiness Certificate no mater if the kit is from US, foreign design or scratch built. pilot or not (Some Builders don't fly at all)
Only the test phase requires a rated pilot.
When the mini 500 came out lots of builders were calling on pilots to fly the test phase. Many had flown the 40 hours without the Pilot Cert &
when the FAA said "You can't do that" They'd start from zero. . .
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Can anyone explain the process to obtain an AWC on a single place gyro and getting a license to fly it?

I'm training in a 2 place machine but can't solo the CFI gyro, in order to fly the machine I've been told the machine has to have 40 hrs on it but that I can't solo in the machine or fly off the 40 hrs.

Whole process seems very confusing.

Was also told that the kit I build has to be US Certified. How can I confirm this?

Bobby
I am going to try to keep it simple Bobby and only talk about one thing at a time. There are actually several separate questions in your post.

Usually a person is signed off to solo a specific airworthy aircraft with some transition training involved if it different than the training aircraft.

In my opinion a gyroplane does not need to be built from an approved kit to be registered as experimental, amateur built.

There a list of tasks that must be completed by an amateur for fun and education.

Here is an example of a list: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av...built/kits/media/AmBuiltFabAssyCklistGyro.pdf

Most people use a designated airworthiness representative to help them through the process. It is the DAR’s job to see that it complies with the rules for EAB aircraft.

I worked with a representative from my local Flight Standards District Office for the new phase one in The Predator when I installed the larger engine, prop and rotor blades. That is considered a major change so I had a new phase one to fly. It was 25 hours and that was not really enough time to do the testing. I had to fly within a 25 mile radius of my airport.

Once an aircraft has an airworthiness certificate there is a phase one period (typically 40 hours) were a pilot who is certificated in that category and class needs to fly it in a restricted area and basically test it for the pilot’s operating handbook that they then write.

This started when the FAA found that most accidents happen during the first 40 hours of operation of an EAB aircraft.

The limitation for who can fly it is in all of the more recent operating limitations issued as a part of the airworthiness process.

Once phase one is completed anyone with an appropriate category and class certificate, even a student can fly her if he has the proper endorsement from a certificated flight instructor.

If you find a gyroplane that you can use for five hours to satisfy the solo requirement and get your Sport Pilot, Gyroplane certificate than you can fly the phase one on your own machine.

I recommend having an experienced gyroplane pilot make the first flights to make certain she is rigged correctly and help to correct any problems. In my opinion this is not a job for a newly certificated pilot.
 

Sv.grainne

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Vance:

Saw your response after I posted my frustration. I'm going to Anahuac in several weeks to meet with A CFI there who says we can work it out. So will hold off on frustration bubbling over till later!

You are right on, I need 5 hrs solo in an AW machine before I could be allowed to burn off 40 hrs on my own machine.

More as I progress, only 9 hrs of flight training so far and don't plan to start the build till 2021 but want to nail down all the pieces early.

Bobby
 

hillberg

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This is insane, to the point it is almost to the point that I'm ready to just say the hell with it!
Look for an ultra light gyro - No certs at all - but get training it'll save your bacon

test phase requires a minimum of a private pilot certificate... no student temp cert
 

Vance

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Just take it one step at a time and you will get it done.

I have helped a lot of people through the process.

Would you really want to be turned loose in an untested aircraft with your level of skills?

In The Predator I had radio issues and some fuel delivery issues during her phase one even though she was already a flying aircraft.

The trim system had to be modified for the Sport Copter Rotor Blades.

Most countries don't allow the freedoms we have in the USA and some flight instructors from other countries think its nuts and the government should do more to protect us from ourselves.
 

Eric S

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This is insane, to the point it is almost to the point that I'm ready to just say the hell with it!

Bobby,

Don't lose your enthusiasm now!

You came to see me in Kingsland and check out my gyros. When your Aviomania is ready, I'll fly off the 40 hrs. for you. No charge!!

If you get stuck or need an extra hand along the way, call me and I'll fly down and help.

Eric
 

Sv.grainne

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Thanks Eric, I'm meeting with a CFI ON THE 19th and think we can work thru the issuses. Will keep you in mind, I'll send you a PM later..

Bobby
 

MTO Flyer

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I had the same issue with the AutoGyro MTO that I build when I was still a student pilot.
I couldn't find anybody who would let me fly their Gyro to get my solo hours.
My CFI worked with me to fly off the 40 phase 1 hours.
Then I soloed in the gyro that I had built.
The system is messed up, but you can find a way to work around it.
 

Tyger

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The limitation for who can fly it is in all of the more recent operating limitations issued as a part of the airworthiness process.

I think this is correct, however...
My operating limitations did not specify what sort of a certificate the PIC of my aircraft had to have during Phase I.
Without anything specified in the operating limitations, it would not be illegal for a student pilot to solo an aircraft during Phase I, in my opinion.
 

Resasi

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This is insane, to the point it is almost to the point that I'm ready to just say the hell with it!
During the process there will be times when, driven to near insanity by the various hurdles there will be, you may well be saying to hell with it!!!

But simply regard these as steps that will result in an even greater feeling of satisfaction, when you do finally get airborne in a machine you have built.

It is a very addictive experience that may well induce one to try it again...only... to find out that nothing changes and those ‘oh dear’ moments are still around to be endured all over again. :)
 

gyroplanes

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I am in the middle of the FAA's switch over to the new certification procedures. We had a Zoom meeting that apparently left a lot of us scratching our heads. We had a second Zoom meeting that confirmed that it is still in "Beta mode" even though it has been mandatory to use the new portal since JUly 1st.

How it is supposed to work is the applicant goes to the new AWC portal, completes their paperwork on the site, and the FAA contacts the DAR he has chosen for his certification. We get the message that you want to use our services, look over your submitted papers (all of them; now including Application, builder's log, program letter, Eligibility statement, registration certificate, wgt & bal, 51% and pre-inspection and in process tech inspection pre-cover sign offs, 3 view pictures or drawings of the aircraft and, if turbine powered, a maintenance manual for the aircraft)
I still do all of the paperwork and submit it for my applicants. This may change if they ever make it user friendly for civilians :cool:

I'll bet I have around 50 hours working on two Helicycle certifications in progress since pre-Covid. The glitches in the system, at this time, preclude the applicant from trying to make heads or tails of the process. I have about 5 other certifications in line as well. I expect to get the (2) FSDOs approvals next week. I have been a DAR for over 20 years and it was quite simple in the old days. All of the "approvals" were after the fact as the DAR has the responsibility to perform correctly. All of this new system is based around perfection, without ANY discrepancies. Errors require manpower to correct and the FAA plans to make drastic cuts in there employee pool (according to a very reliable source)

About the 40 hour No Solo controversy in your own aircraft. All that is required, according to the aircraft's operating limitations

FROM THE OPS LIMITS GENERATOR
" 6. The pilot in command of this aircraft must hold Rotorcraft category and Gyroplane class certificate or privilege. The pilot in command must hold all required ratings or authorizations, and endorsements required by 14 CFR part 61. " When we asked about this limitation, we were told that the line "or privilege" is a student solo endorsement in their log book. I have found that this is not common knowledge in the field.
 

Resasi

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Tom thank you very much for posting this.

It has been very enlightening indeed to see just how much work goes into the process from your side, which has been pretty much a total mystery to those of us on the other side of the fence.

Change, possibly designed to make things easier, certainly do sometimes makes thing harder during inception. And as some very sad people found out, the designers can get it very wrong indeed, as the 737 Max saga has proved. Not everything is perfect at the first attempt

I am sure that many of us have tried Beta versions of various apps, programs, or pieces of equipment and found to our dismay that there were indeed glitches that took extra time effort and money, but I guess that has always been the way forward, through trial and error, blood seat and tears.

There was another little fact which I thought I had seen somewhere which seemed to indicate that an ‘approved engine and propellor combination’ might reduce the number of hours required for phase 1 testing?

Fact or fiction?

If fact, what might the terms of this possible reduction?

In the meantime thanks and best wishes for you ongoing efforts for our community, one that you have for so many years been associated with.
 

Sv.grainne

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Jeff:

We saw this while searching regs by it does not spell out that a student pilot can fly off the required time. We searched the FAR and parts 21 etc and could not find anything spelling it out.

Bobby
 

JEFF TIPTON

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Advisory circular was for Resasi on the use of a certificated engine and propeller.

As to a student pilot flying off the forty hours think of it this way:
Operating limitations issued for each experimental aircraft specify the minimum rating required to operate the aircraft. It does specify what level of certificate; ATP, commercial, private, recreational and student are all a level of certificate.
As long as you meet the operating limitations you may legally operate the aircraft from that point of view.

The problem is a student pilot must endorsed to aircraft they are pilot in command of. In the case of a single seat aircraft how do you check the student out to fly an aircraft that may not have flown yet.

In the case of a two seater, there is a new advisory circular allowing for a highly qualified pilot to assist in the first few hours of operation of certain aircraft to allow for the builder to become accustomed to aircrafts flight characteristics.

I will see if I can a link to the advisory circular and post

Important to remember that legal is not always safe.
 
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