Aerobatics in a gyro

Al_Hammer

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

All of these things that I did with models, my life was never really at risk.  I did have to be very concered about where I did alot of these manuvers so that I would not put anyone elses life at risk. <br>
<br><br>Small point, but , someone was recently killed by his R/C helicopter  when he handed the controls over to a student.<br>Student lost control and the rotor caught the owner  in the throat.<br><br><br>
 

PW_Plack

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

In nearly every field of endeavor, a small percentage of participants pushes the envelope beyond what seems reasonable to most people, to seek thrills or promote sales. What they learn, sometimes the hard way, often ends up benefitting us all. Back when so-called "stock cars" actually were based mechanically on street cars, many improvements in engines, brakes and other systems originated there, and found their way into the products we buy. <br><br>I've heard people criticize Jim as a "bad example" for doing the loop. 1700 hours experience, careful preparation, official authorization, following all the applicable rules, and always cautioning onlookers that this is not something to be tried without all those same precautions. I'd call that a good example.<br><br>Ron, have you ever seen the maneuvers we're talking about? Jim's loops are straight up and over with no roll. No deviation in yaw or roll, only pitch. It's the roll, which Jim normally does right out of the exit from the loop, that's a kind of corkscrew. I'll try to bring the video along next time I'm in your part of the country!
 

Chuck_Ellsworth

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

A short reply to John Stevens last post.<br><br>I have no idea of why you interpet everything I post to suit your own view of the subject.<br><br>If you cannot read my posts and understand that I do not advocate aerobatics in a gyro, if for no other reason I have no background training in gyro aerobatics...here it is again...I do not advocate gyro aerobatics.<br><br>Quite frankly you have your oipnions regarding flying and I have mine.<br><br>Anyone reading our posts can form their own opinion as to who they wish to side with, of course I would hope that they look into the experience level and background in aviation of both you and me.<br><br>So John one more time...I post here because I want to if you don't like my attitude then maybe you can go back to my post in the crazy Ivan thread on Nov 10 / 03 at 6:23 P.M.and read the second to last sentence.  <br><br>
 

RHerron

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Fellows,<br><br>  Don't forget that there were several Autogiros looped in the 1930's.  John Miller looped his PCA-2 hundreds of times as well as rolling it along with wingovers and hammerheads. This machine used elevators and ailerons for control....ie., still controllable with the rotor unloaded.  (You should hear some of his stories which include falling out of a loop.)<br><br>  I have spoken with John many times about this and he is immovable in his opinion that a direct-control (tilt-head) gyro should NOT be looped, rolled or otherwise 'tempted'.<br><br>  It isn't as though he doesn't know the difference.  He was a test pilot for Wallace Kellett and flew the Kellett KD-1B in all sorts of flight tests as well as for the mail delivery contract with Eastern Airlines and flew from the top of the post office building daily, for one year.<br><br>  While he speaks highly of the Kellett and other "wingless" autogyros, he refused to do any aerobatics in them.<br><br>  John is 98 years old and doing well.  Maybe we should listen to him.
 

Hoss-Fly

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Gentleman,<br>Please, let's refrain from the pissing contests, some of you have some real fargile egos.  I simply posted a theoretical question here, sat back, opened my ears and eyes, shut my mouth, and put to the side the fact that I have almost a hundred hours fixed-wing (which includes some aerobatic training) and 780 in military helicopters with two deployments flying in 6 different countries in conditions ranging from frozen mountains to blazing deserts, including one war (maybe you all have heard about it, they tell me it was on CNN).  What I am trying to get at is you folks need to check your egos at the door as these kinda posts might put off possible future gyro pilots from joining this sport.<br><br>In the words of everyone else here, just my two cents.<br><br>Fly Army,<br><br>Vince Rodgers
 

PW_Plack

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Ron,<br><br>I'll see if I can scare up a copy. The tape Jim has had available for the last few years shows several loops, but no rolls. The one he prepared for the Hofstra conference had loops, rolls, flying with floats, and other fun footage, and was better edited. I could snail-mail it, but I have friends in Greenville, and may be there sooner than later, so one way or the other, I'll get you one.
 

GyroRon

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

I will let everyone know what I think of it after I see it!
 

Heron

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Ron et Caterva:<br>I keep thinking about skills and there are lots of them in learning flying maneuvers (all of them)<br>I will never attpempt anything different because my way of thinking is: transportation and some fun.<br>Maybe I will have all the skills needed to try but not the will . . .<br>When you say "not a lot of skill to do it" do you mean that a pilot like yourself could attempt the loop and be successful?<br>And for Chuck: how do you invent new maneuvers to teach someone?<br>Thanks<br>Heron
 

DougKspokane

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Heron... I'm with you.  When I get flying, the most adventuresome I expect to get is a cross-country flight from Spokane to Arlington for the fly-in.  HOWEVER, some of the skills shown by "Ivan" - and they ARE SKILLS - such as cross-controling and slipping may be needed if we ever get caught landing in a serious crosswind.  True?  I just don't plan to do it every flight.<br><br>Doug Kaer
 

Udi

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Steven,<br><br>Can I order a copy of your DVD?  VHS is fine.  I'll be happy to pay any expenses.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Udi
 

Udi

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Doug,<br><br>Cross controlling is part of the training, but don't forget that this is a gyro, not an airplane.  If the crosswind is strong enough you just land across the runway or on a taxiway.<br><br>Udi
 

DougKspokane

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Udi... what happens in a cross-wind landing in a gyro?  Is it something that is near impossible, difficult or just "not recommended"?<br><br>DougK
 

Chuck_Ellsworth

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Gyro Ron:<br><br>You are advising total strangers and many newcomers to flying how to perform aerobatic maneuvers.<br><br>You by your own admission are not even a licensed pilot, the maneuvers you are giving advice on are advanced maneuvers.<br><br>I just read your advice on how to perform the loop and a roll.<br><br>Please further explain or rather elaborate on just what maneuver the airplane performed with the control inputs you just described, the one you so casually called a roll.<br><br>Oh yes it is an aerobatic manouver all right but maybe you can tell us the true name of the results of the control movements you have described.<br><br>If you are going to describe something it would be wise to at least understand the manouver you are doing.....and the cautions that are required before performing said maneuver. <br><br>Chuck E.<br><br>
 

Chuck_Ellsworth

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Normally it would be called a snap roll???<br><br> It is a snap roll, and can be quite dangerous depending on what aircraft it is done in and how you are doing it.<br><br>My reason for even becoming involved in your comments Ron is to caution those who have no idea about this type of flying that it is extremely dangerous to attempt to fly any aircraft in a manner that requires a high level of skill to be safe and proficent at.<br><br>Quite frankly Ron your disclaimer at the bottom of your post can easily be missed or misunderstood by those who are new to flying.<br><br>And last but not least by making it sound like it is simple to perform advanced maneuvers in aircraft you are doing a disservice to the those who have no experience.<br><br>Chuck E.
 

Udi

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Ron, You are bad, man...  I got sick just reading your aerobatic descriptions.  Well, at least I think I know now why you are taking aerobatics so casually.  You were doing them in an aircraft that is super forgiving.  You can't go wrong.  In this aerobatic ultralight, any maneuver will end with the blue side up and the brown side down as soon as you let go of the stick right?  Given enough altitude, you are completely safe, doesn't matter what you do.<br><br>Unfortunately, aerobatics in a gyro are much more dangerous.  Your control inputs must be timely and accurate or you end up unloading the rotors and you can say bye bye.  That's why Jim needs a ton of skills, Ron.  I know that you know that, you are just being contrary.<br><br>Doug, the main difference between an airplane landing and a gyro landing is that in a gyro your touch down airspeed is much slower than in airplane.  This means that you don't have as much rudder authority as an airplane does.  Your rotor disc may still be flying, but your rudder, and with it your yaw control, are dead.  You can cheat by using prop wash to make the rudder more effective, but that is risky because if the engine decided to quit you’re out of luck.<br><br>The advantage of the gyro over an airplane is that the gyro has a very short landing roll.  If the crosswind is strong enough to be a concern, than it is also strong enough to enable you to make a no-roll landing.  You will be landing like a helicopter, so you don’t need a long runway; you can land straight into the wind.<br><br>Steven, I already have the regular Sport Copter video cassette, but I wanted to see the roll and other maneuvers you described.  I've never seen Jim in an air show.  My address is:<br>Udi Zeigerson<br>3100 Boone St.<br>Fort Collins, CO 80526.<br><br>Thanks Steven!<br><br>Udi-<br>
 

Heron

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Re: Aerobatics in a gyro

Ron:<br>Every step of that maneuver (and every other one) requires a set of skill that you have and is so used to that they seem to be forgotten.<br>So you use skills to acquire skills, that is what I've learned here with this group. YOu go to the edge and every time you push a little more creating and than honing that skill.<br>So . . .what looks so easy to you and mesmerize us (and add a little to your ego legend) could be very far to someone that haven't tryed yet, in consequence do not have that particular skill.<br>Now come the labeling part: everyone have an opinion and like (some not too much) to express it, choosing defining words and thir particular jargon, creating labels of critique or criticism.<br>When you like the critic you enjoy a moment of reward for your actions, when you do not like it . . .you come to the forum and bitch (it wasn't me) about  it like many do!<br>Chuck E. says what he thinks and knows, we enjoy it!Sometimes he pics some words that makes some people cringe and than . . .we have a lot more fun in the Forum!<br>I will be watching you, taking pics of you and showing them to friends and they will decide if they wanto to try out your stuff or not.<br>If a newbie comes here an goes out trying stuff without learnig the skills necessary (whatever) and shoot happens, IT IS HIS FAULT ALONE, not the Forum's, not yours, not anybody else's<br>And this is God's truth . . . <br>thanks<br>Heron
 
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