Aero 2011, my quick report

Gyro_Kai

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I will put a comprehensive report with prices and details into the PRA rotorcraft if Paul P. lets me.

Don't expect any great deals though, the Cavalon is 10 000 Euros more than the Calidus, the Xenon Executive is 10 000 Euros more than the Xenon 2 etc. Only the Kiss and the Clouddancer lite are fairly cheap.

Kai.
 

Gyro_Kai

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I told you.
That's probably why I thought, the Calidus compared looks like a toy... :)
I was amazed by the low empty weight (230 kg = 495 lbs). It is solid as a truck, Raphael stood in it upright and jumped up and down. There was a slogan: Real gyros for real men. I hope it does not fly like a truck.

Correction: the central mount for the struts and the struts are not made of steel, but of Sical (?).

Kai.
 

PW_Plack

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Kai,

I hope to start work on a manufacturer's issue next month, and would welcome help in gathering info from your side of the Atlantic. I'll need manufacturers' data, and will welcome reviews from people who've actually flown them, so long as any relationship with manufacturers is clear.
 

PTKay

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Last a view from the front. As you can gather, there is a good, un-obstructed view out front, albeit not as good as in an M24 or a Xenon.
I sincerely doubt it.

When you look from the side, the pilot of my size (175cm)
will have his line of view exactly on the top of the dashboard.

On take-off and flare you will see nothing forward, like in the good
old taildraggers of the past.

Also the side columns are enormous compared to any other gyro.

The front view reminds me more of a Cessna, than anything else.
(not speaking about the Xenon).

I am afraid, you will have rather a 152 felling, than a helicopter,
like in Xenon, with the huge windshield and big floor windows.
 

tadel001

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Just an observation and possibly a warning... All the European manufacturers seem excited to bring their awesome products to the US. Many at the FAA have an image of "experimental" possibly "unsafe" gyro planes and do not understand the substantial improvements in gyroplane technology. I am sure we could sit on a forum all day long an point out deficiencies on every aircraft in the world. Given that gyroplanes are still considered a novelty by "mainstream" aviation, those not passionate about gyroplanes look at the industry as a whole and not specific planes.

Aero 2011 looks like a great event with tremendous displays in advancement of gyroplane technology. These threads started out showing how great the gyroplane industry is doing by coming up with new products that are built upon years of experience. However, it seems these types of threads alway turn into competitive bashing. I can tell you with 100% confidence, that internal industry competitive bashing will significantly harm everyone.

I understand that PTkay is passionate about Xenon. Good for him. He should then talk about the positives of Xenon. Instead, the focus seems to be on the negatives of everyone else.

Again, like everyone else, I am just voicing an opinion. However, in working with the FAA on getting gyroplanes more widely accepted in the US, I can tell you they see this competitive bashing and it doesn't boost their confidence in the industry.

p.s. I think the argument that "copying" another product is somehow a bad thing shows a substantial lack of understanding of manufacturer, evolution and product design. All fixed wing aircraft (and helicopters to some extent) copied the Wright Brothers. Most race cars are a copy and evolution of prior race cars. I am sure to some extent Magni copied some technology from a prior aircraft. Finally, the biggest copy in the world most democratic governments copied the Greeks. If you try to reinvent the wheel, then apparently evolution skipped over you.
 

Gyro_Kai

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I sincerely doubt it.

When you look from the side, the pilot of my size (175cm)
will have his line of view exactly on the top of the dashboard.
No, I'm 172 cm. Great visibility.
On take-off and flare you will see nothing forward, like in the good
old taildraggers of the past.
In the Calidus this is not the case, in fact, I would have wished for more nose in my line of view to better align the yaw angle. Remains to be proven, I'll tell you, should I get a chance to fly it.
Also the side columns are enormous compared to any other gyro.
no, not true.
The front view reminds me more of a Cessna, than anything else.
You mean there is a pusher Cessna without the huge bonnet and prop in front?
(not speaking about the Xenon).

I am afraid, you will have rather a 152 felling, than a helicopter,
like in Xenon, with the huge windshield and big floor windows.
Yes, visibility in a Xenon is probably better, especially during the emergency landing after the doors flew off.
Why are we doing this bashing?

Even as a sales rep it is bad practice to foulmouth the competition, especially without ever having been near the product.

Can't we just acknowledge the effort and innovation being put on the market?
Others will follow, and copy (not always a bad thing) and improve their products for everyone's sake.

Kai.
 

PTKay

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Tim,

you put up some very valid points.

Following your thoughts, you can say, that Celier KISS is "a copy" of Dominator,
or whatever other traditional tandem you may point out.

But the truth is, that real progress is created by those "stepping outside the box".

Xenon is first, one and only (at the moment) gyrocopter with self supporting cabin,
fiberglass (or carbon) monococque design.

It took the car manufacturers 3/4 of a century to get from the "frame and body"
construction to this modern design.

Of course, we shouldn't "reinvent the wheel", but we also cannot just continue
to build gyroplanes as a combination of two bars, one vertical, one horizontal,
and the only difference is, if we put 1 or 2 seats on it, if we protect the
pilot with no, or half or full cabin fixed by some bolts to those bars.

I think you are right by saying that we should point out the good things, not
the bad ones, to promote the industry.
But on the other hand turning a blind eye to some dangerous designs and
negligent manufacturers does no good to the image of the gyroplane.

Long time tolerating the RAF did lots of damage to the image of the industry.
Only now, when they are eliminated the slow recovery and development
in public perception can be noticed.

You vcan say, that the long time "RAF bashing" was wrong, but I am pretty sure,
that, by the end of a day, it was the right thing to do.

Not speaking about, maybe, saving a few lives.
 

PTKay

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Why are we doing this bashing?

Even as a sales rep it is bad practice to foulmouth the competition, especially without ever having been near the product.
You are right Kai, I base my opinions just on the few images available
on their web page and your excellent report. Thanks, btw, for your effort.

And to put the things straight, I am not a sales rep of Xenon. :)

I am just disgusted by the discrepancy between the necessary
due diligence in ironing out the flaws known for years, probably due
to savings, and at the same time spending a fortune on "marketing stunts".
How much it would cot to put an emergency handle on the Calidus canopy?

Can't we just acknowledge the effort and innovation being put on the market?
Others will follow, and copy (not always a bad thing) and improve their products for everyone's sake.

Kai.
For the image and development of the gyroplane industry,
the more competitors enter it, the better. Let the best win.

But also for the sake of the image and development of the gyroplane industry,
safety should have the priority over any other aspect of the product.
 
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PTKay

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Yes, visibility in a Xenon is probably better, especially during the emergency landing after the doors flew off.
Kai, that was unnecessary.
The "door issue" on Xenon is 3 years old, new doors have been developed,
installed and effectively solved the problem.

Nobody was hurt or harmed in any other way either on board or on the ground
by this (already effectively eliminated) flaw.

At the same time the Calidus canopy issue, resulting in many heavy injuries
has not been solved effectively until today and addressed by the manufacturer
only with a placard and hammer.

Just wanted to bring some issues into perspective.

And now, herewith I declare, I stop the bashing!

:)
 

tadel001

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Canopies are interest... Sky Arrow, SportCruiser, Evektor, SeaMax, ... I could go on and on... don't have an "emergency handle" for their canopies. Actually, an emergency handle (not sure exactly what it does) is not what is necessary. A hammer is necessary. If the plane rolls over (I know this for a fact as I witnessed but was not in the aircraft), you cannot open the canopy. You must hammer the glass to make a hole and crawl out.

"Let the best win..." What about everyone winning? What about having the entire industry having the markets open up, everyone sell planes, everyone get fly different aircraft and everyone having a great time.

Personally, I love the fact that we are seeing many companies build many variations of a similar design. We (consumers) can then look at the aircraft, options, price, safety and make our compromised decision on what we want.

Can we get more pictures of Aero 2011?
 

Passin' Thru

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Actually, an emergency handle (not sure exactly what it does) is not what is necessary. A hammer is necessary. If the plane rolls over (I know this for a fact as I witnessed but was not in the aircraft), you cannot open the canopy. You must hammer the glass to make a hole and crawl out.
That is for sure! I knew 4 people who drowned in a Piper Apache who went down just off from St Thomas simply because they couldn't get out of the sinking aircraft. Shame.:sad:
 

PTKay

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Canopies are interest... Sky Arrow, SportCruiser, Evektor, SeaMax, ... I could go on and on... don't have an "emergency handle" for their canopies.
All the aircraft you quote are not certified, they are ultralight.
Enclosed see the images of the canopy of the AT-3 JAA VLA certified.
(version AT-4 known in US as Gobosh)
http://www.aero.com.pl/
The big red handles allow for fast ejection of the canopy even in the air
before you emergency land or are going to crash.
The canopy normally opens forward, the emergency handles cut the forward
hinges bolts and the canopy flies backwards.

The MS Rallye, which I fly most (aka Socata, Morane or Koliber) has a canopy sliding
backwards, which can be opened in flight.
Flight Manual in emergency situations, fire or ditching suggests opening
the canopy in flight.
"Let the best win..." What about everyone winning? What about having the entire industry having the markets open up, everyone sell planes, everyone get fly different aircraft and everyone having a great time.

Personally, I love the fact that we are seeing many companies build many variations of a similar design. We (consumers) can then look at the aircraft, options, price, safety and make our compromised decision on what we want.
Well said.
Fully agree.
 

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PTKay

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That is for sure! I knew 4 people who drowned in a Piper Apache who went down just off from St Thomas simply because they couldn't get out of the sinking aircraft. Shame.:sad:
Most Piper and Beechcraft low wing have just one door on one side for all 4 occupants.
Really not a nice situation in case of any emergency.

Modern ones, like Cirrus or Diamond have at least 2,
also Socata TB.
 

tadel001

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They are certified in the US under the SP rule. It is not Part 23 but it does have a valid US issued airworthiness certificate. The Sky Arrow is certified, part 23 in the US. Katana, Tecnam Sierra has a standard certification. Keep in mind that an aircraft upside down cannot slide, open, etc. a canopy. Also, a cessna, Cirrus, Diamond, etc, cannot have the doors open when jammed shut. That is why you are supposed to open doors in a forced landing. However, we don't always know when we are doing to be in an accident. The best thing to have is a way to knock on the window. No need to over engineer the best solution. The cave man hammer works every time.

That is interesting that you open or eject canopy before forced landing. For many of these aircraft, the canopy can offer protection in a crash.
 

All_In

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Very, very cool!

Thank you for sharing all the NEW toys with us, U-ROCK!
 
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This shows how much more the gyro is respected in Europe.
Sales drive innovation.
The U.S. currently is far behind and will stay there until the F.A.A. addresses it's current policies to limit gyro growth in the states.
On the flip side, $100 K gyros are looking at another market then the primary U.S. market that we have to date.
Time will tell....
 

PTKay

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On the flip side, $100 K gyros are looking at another market then the primary U.S. market that we have to date.
Time will tell....
The price is standard on the LSA market.
It can vary slightly up and down, but is well accepted on the market.

This unprecedented and unexplainable banning of gyroplanes from the LSA
rule can be only explained by the protectionism of the US authorities.

There are effectively NO American manufacturers of factory build gyroplanes,
so who can do the lobbying? Just the importers of the European brands.

And why there are No American manufacturers? Because there is no
LSA approval? So the cat bites it's tail.
 

PTKay

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Regarding visibility: :)



CAVALON



XENON
 
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