ADS-B a great idea going burecratic goofy.

cleatus99

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So Since I am building a Gyro and I live inside The Mode C airspace boundry of DFW Bravo Airspace I have been doing a lot of studying on the FAA 2020 NextGen Madate...

So what is on the books so far.
Beginning Jan 1, 2020 all aircraft with power that operate in airspace requiring transponders now will be required to have a 'ADS-B Out' transmitter.

The Cool ADS-B will transmit your GPS position speed etc aircraft ID and you can see everyone else too. Seperation assistance....

1st benefits.
FAA ground recievers(ATC) and all aircraft, with 'ADS-B' In recievers will be able to see you! now Flying around you might have noticed with fly the airspace equivilent of a motorcycle, and it's easy to go unnoticed. So for all the fast fixed wingers and other aircraft blasting around they'll see us on the map and get an alert that we are near.

Free Weather! (our taxes pay for it) I became quickly spoiled flying my Cherokee 180 with XM Weather on my Garmin GPS. I called it 'Pilot Crack' once you start using it, it's hard to quit. Getting recent NexRad Radar, and winds aloft, METAR, ceilings... It was just awesome. the $55 a month price wasn't so much, but I was flying 200+ hours a year so I figured i was saving that in better fuel savings with winds aloft. ADS-B in offers much of the same information and all you need is a reciever and a device to display it. Since I already have an iPad for charts, I bought an ADS-B reciever and boom life is good. ~Subscription Free in-flight Weather!

Now the Bad if you fly a sling wing or fixed wing and have an existing Mode-C Transponder then you just need to install a Certified TSO'd GPS (think IFR) source and a 978 UAT ADS-B transmitter if you are a "Low and Slow" aircraft. if you are fast and high 175 Knots+ and fly over 18k Feet then you need a Mode-S transponder with Extended Squitter aka 1090ES along with a Certified GPS position source.

So in short if you fly a gyro the FAA wants you to install two transponders, two antennas and a $3000+ GPS and antenna to fly in controlled airspace before 2020. Where is the promised low cost!

Having 978 UAT out means anyone with 978 UAT In will see if directly if nearby or through you position repeated through FAA 978 Ground station that will also uplink you to 1090ES mode-S as well.

So if you are out and about at ahem 500feet agl and out of sight of a ground station and are transmitting you position then anyone with the 978 UAT will recieve you. Which 978 UAT In is the only way to get the weather broadcast information.

If you installed a 1090ES out setup the other aircraft will need a 1090ES in to see you unless you are both in range of ground station.

There are more techincal details like the ground station will only send traffic information (TIS-B) if there is an aircraft with ADS-B out requesting it nearby. So if you get the ADS-B reciever (978 UAT) you get FIS-B (weather) but unless someone near you is ADS-B out you won't get TIS-B (Traffic)


The New Hope
I spoke to a GPS manufacturer yesterday for 45 minutes and he pointed me to a draft TSO 199 document for the Light Aircraft Surveillance Equipment (LASE) which is kind of ADS-B out lite for nordo, ultralights, gliders, and Gyros:yo: That may allow battery powered portable ADS-B out so we can be seen.... The good news is the provision to allow commercial GPS modules that are in nearly everones cell phone that are nearly as good as the certified aircraft GPS recievers (lots of techical details ignored) so bypassing the $3000 GPS TSO'd units with a lot cheaper <$66 GPS device and 978 UAT out. Unfortuneatly from what I can decifer from the Draft TSO199 if you operate in controlled airspace they still want the certified stuff.... :censored:

The good news is unless you want to burn money, I have been told Oshkosh will be a trove of lower cost solutions this year. Also hopefully costs to meet the 2020 mandate are expected to decline as the date gets closer.


http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/
 

eddie

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airport airspace is a inverted wedding cake configuration as long as you stay low and

underneath it you won't need a transponder. The only time a heavy will be down there

is when its crashing,any way that's want I think.

best regards,eddie.....
 

Stan V

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airport airspace is a inverted wedding cake configuration as long as you stay low and

underneath it you won't need a transponder. The only time a heavy will be down there

is when its crashing,any way that's want I think.

best regards,eddie.....

Eddie, the mode C space requires the transponder. Look for the ring around class B airspace on a sectional. it's 60 miles across. You can not fly beneath anypart of the B airspace (Well, almost) without a transponder.
 
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Fly Army

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Many of you weren't around back when they began requiring 4096 mode c transponders. The talk back then reminds me exactly of now. The first quoted prices for the units were astronomical and everyone cried foul and swore the world would end. Amazingly and almost as if on que from an economics textbook the prices of the units began to fall as the required date drew nearer. The sky did not fall and the world did not end. That's my prediction for now as well.
 

RotorRambler

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Eddie, the mode C space requires the transponder. Look for the ring around class B airspace on a sectional. it's 60 miles across. You can not fly beneath anypart of the B airspace without a transponder.

Stan,

Thanks for pointing out the difference between class B airspace and the surrounding mode C veil. But, one thing you can be sure of, as soon as you post something on this forum and try to clarify things with a simple explanation, someone is sure to jump in with a "Yeah, but ...". :)

So, here's the "Yeah, but ..."

A mode C veil doesn't always perfectly align with the outer edges of class B airspace. It is possible to fly underneath a portion of some class B airspace while outside the mode C veil. DFW's class B is one example.

As Bryan noted, you need a transponder when flying within the veil and, in fact, for most controlled airspace. Some partial relief for this requirement is given to an aircraft than doesn't have, and has never had, an "engine-driven
electrical system".

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div8&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.8

Ira
 
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cleatus99

CFI/CFII
Joined
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Stan,

As Bryan noted, you need a transponder when flying within the veil and, in fact, for most controlled airspace. Some partial relief for this requirement is given to an aircraft than doesn't have, and has never had, an "engine-driven
electrical system".

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div8&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.8

Ira


Ira,
Correct, however the FAA with TSO c199 is wanting a low cost way to tag NORDO as well. So far not required

But the ADS-B out mandate for 2020 (currently) still sticks in that is your are currently required Mode C, then you have to add ADS-B Out.
 

Stan V

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Stan,

Thanks for pointing out the difference between class B airspace and the surrounding mode C veil. But, one thing you can be sure of, as soon as you post something on this forum and try to clarify things with a simple explanation, someone is sure to jump in with a "Yeah, but ...". :)

So, here's the "Yeah, but ..."

A mode C veil doesn't always perfectly align with the outer edges of class B airspace. It is possible to fly underneath a portion of some class B airspace while outside the mode C veil. DFW's class B is one example.

As Bryan noted, you need a transponder when flying within the veil and, in fact, for most controlled airspace. Some partial relief for this requirement is given to an aircraft than doesn't have, and has never had, an "engine-driven
electrical system".



http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div8&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.3.7.8

Ira

You are of coarse correct, but if installing a transponder, would exceed your alternators ability to keep up with the amount of additional discharge, you may fly into mode C airspace as if you had no electric system at all, without a trasnponder and yet have an otherwise full electrical system. I know they don't draw much juice, but!!!!
 
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