A&S 18A For sale and jump T/O

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
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That's true only if you use the economist's favorite assumption "all other things being equal." My personal experience with the 18A tells me that they are definitely not equal, and that assuming an experimental aircraft subjected to student abuse while depended upon for commercial dispatch reliability will also be cheaper in all other regards (other than fuel), while generating the same revenue, would be incorrect.
 

Dmorris

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Somerset Kentucky
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I currently own an IFR Carbon Cub FX3. This is my 3rd Carbon Cub. Owned a Xenon, 2 TAF 2000's.
Total Flight Time
Thousands and adding every week!
For instance, a Carbon Cub with big tires will take off and land in less than 300' and can use an extremely rough runway, field, or whatever. Super efficient on fuel, nearly zero maintenance, and brand new for $150K loaded with equipment.
I took delivery of a 2013 Carbon Cub this year, technically it is now last year, at Oshkosh. Mine is equipped with a glass panel, extended cargo, auto pilot, etc., etc. The takeoff and cllimb performance is better than any gyro I've ever flown. Short field landings are impressive. Not quite zero maintenance. The whole fleet is actually grounded now due to a service bulletin. With that said Cubcrafters is a company like no other I've ever dealt with. Other companies should use them as an example of how to respond to a known problem. Hopefully all CC owners will be back in the air soon.

With all the thrill and excitement flying a Carbon Cub brings I still miss my Xenon more than I ever thought I would. When I sold it my intent was to replace it immediately. Buying a Carbon Cub was not even on my radar screen. I've seriously considered two different gyros since I sold my Xenon. Even thought about looking into the 18A. I've never made the initial call due to concerns of long term parts availability and resale.

Flying my Carbon Cub does not replace my love of flying gyros neither does flying a gyro replace the rush of taking off in 150 ft. Ft. and climbing at 2000 FPM in a tail dragger. I hope to be doing both again soon!
 

Fly Army

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18,000 ish , I guess
That's true only if you use the economist's favorite assumption "all other things being equal." My personal experience with the 18A tells me that they are definitely not equal, and that assuming an experimental aircraft subjected to student abuse while depended upon for commercial dispatch reliability will also be cheaper in all other regards (other than fuel), while generating the same revenue, would be incorrect.
My comparison does not permit the student to use the aircraft without the instructor onboard. It's not a rental scenario just a flight training picture as we have currently so I don't see why there would be any student abuse.

In my example you have two instructors - one using an A&S 18 and one using an MTO Sport. If both are charging the same rate (which from a business standpoint would be kind of stupid) the MTO Sport CFI is going to be making more money for every hour flown than the A&S 18 CFI just based on fuel costs alone. And I'm not even looking at or considering any other variables such as maintanence reserve and a huge difference of parts costs which would greatly favor the MTO Sport.

Now if you can't see how uneconomical that situation would ultimately be then I'd like to offer you a senior management position at my airline.
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
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My comparison does not permit the student to use the aircraft without the instructor onboard. It's not a rental scenario just a flight training picture as we have currently so I don't see why there would be any student abuse.
The only way to prevent a student from mishandling the aircraft is for the CFI to do all the flying, and that's not instruction in my book. Student screw-ups are a necessary part of the territory. And if we cut the student off at solo time, then we are not really talking about getting a rating in the aircraft, are we?

a huge difference of parts costs which would greatly favor the MTO Sport.
I respectfully suggest that you don't know anything about, and are apparently wildly over-estimating, my parts cost for operating the A&S 18A. You seem to have simply decided without factual basis that everything about an 18A must cost much more.

If perhaps you are speaking only of engines, without consideration of airframes, or of the commercial ride revenue that is legal in the 18A and illegal in the MTO, or of the different markets to which the aircraft appeal, or of a host of other factors, then I will conceded that ignoring all else it is cheaper to run a 100 horsepower Rotax than a 180 horsepower Lycoming.

When Rotax makes an engine that will provide practical jump take-offs for an 1800 pound certified aircraft, I'll take notice. In the meantime, my operating costs are, as I've said a few times before, no worse than a Piper Archer, and that's based upon real invoices, not uninformed speculation.
 

Fly Army

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18,000 ish , I guess
The only way to prevent a student from mishandling the aircraft is for the CFI to do all the flying, and that's not instruction in my book. Student screw-ups are a necessary part of the territory. And if we cut the student off at solo time, then we are not really talking about getting a rating in the aircraft, are we?



I respectfully suggest that you don't know anything about, and are apparently wildly over-estimating, my parts cost for operating the A&S 18A. You seem to have simply decided without factual basis that everything about an 18A must cost much more.

If perhaps you are speaking only of engines, without consideration of airframes, or of the commercial ride revenue that is legal in the 18A and illegal in the MTO, or of the different markets to which the aircraft appeal, or of a host of other factors, then I will conceded that ignoring all else it is cheaper to run a 100 horsepower Rotax than a 180 horsepower Lycoming.

When Rotax makes an engine that will provide practical jump take-offs for an 1800 pound certified aircraft, I'll take notice. In the meantime, my operating costs are, as I've said a few times before, no worse than a Piper Archer, and that's based upon real invoices, not uninformed speculation.
Well we really can't afford to let the student take the aircraft solo because of insurance costs - no thanks to lawyers ! In my 24 years of being a CFI I have never let a student damage an aircraft and that includes some pretty dynamic tail wheel instruction too. Am I to take it from your response that you would allow a student to rent YOUR aircraft ?

Insofar as my ignorance of costs goes it just so happens I've managed a few military Aeroclubs and have a pretty good idea of what things cost. Let's see whose propellor is more expensive the one on the MTO Sport or the oil driven constant speed prop on an A&S 18A ? Any prop with a TBO on it ain't gonna be cheaper than the Ivo Prop on an MTO. Whose rotor blades are more expensive the simple two bladed non-articulated ones on the MTO Sport or the dampened Hughes 269 blades on the A&S 18A ? Which set would you rather have to replace ? The engine we've already agreed upon as being more expensive on A&S 18A.

Look, the certified Gyroplanes of yore were and are wonderful machines and absolutely deserve to be keep around. They're just not competitive for TODAYS training environment. The only person that would want to learn in one is someone that is going to be owning one and since there's only a small fraction of them still flyable that's a miniscule number of potential students. Some guy from East Butt F8ck, Nebraska that's building a dominator or a butterfly is not gonna want to fly a Mac J 2 or an A&S 18A because they have enormously little in common with what they will ultimately be flying. It wouldn't even make sense really.
 

GyroRon

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Those Carbon Cubs are nice. I was blown away when I found out how much they cost..... but they are very nice!

I remember back before sport pilot came along, and right after the beginning of SP, how real piper cubs, nice ones at that, were going for somewhere around 30 grand. I thought it was crazy how much they sold for, seeing how ercoupes and champs and taylorcrafts and even cessna 120 / 140 / 150 sold for half as much. But Ive noticed that now all those have come up in price and the cub has stayed right in around 30 grand. And really I think its a awesome value and a fun airplane to own and fly. I know a Carbon cub is not really even close to the same as a real cub, having twice the horsepower and a thousand other upgrades, but as Ive said before, Carbon Cubs and other 100 grand + aircraft aren't even remotely on my radar. But a 30-50 grand aircraft is within my striking distance and a cub would be a fun one to have.

Have you ever considered a Vans RV ? Other than the RV10, you can get pretty much any other model RV for under 100K. For 60-90K you can get a really decked out RV-6 or 7 or 8...... I wouldn't get a 9 because its not aerobatic. Any of those RV's would be off the ground in less than 500 feet, and climb at well over 2000 fpm, PLUS cruise at close to 200 miles per hour indicated, and give you the ability to loop and roll if the mood strikes. And whats best about a RV is the way they handle, words can't describe it but no other airplane flys a nicely as a RV.
 

All_In

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Well I think they are cool and cannot wait for the ride Jon offered me only Patches is still out of annul because I been ill an before that could not make my brother go work on it as I know how sick he really feels. But soon Jon.
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
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stopped caring at 1000
FlyArmy - You're making it very clear that you know nothing about the A&S 18A and have never touched the stick in one, much less have any basis to know operating costs or profitability of training with one. Here's just one choice example from your last post:
Whose rotor blades are more expensive the simple two bladed non-articulated ones on the MTO Sport or the dampened Hughes 269 blades on the A&S 18A ?
The A&S 18A uses Parsons-built 35 foot diameter blades of fiberglass/birch/stainless composite with a huge chord and about 55 pounds of mass each, with no life limit, and were designed uniquely for the 18A to make jump take-offs practical. They have absolutely no structure in common with the little 25-26 foot narrow chord all metal life-limited Hughes helicopter blades, as anyone at all familiar with these aircraft would certainly know.

Your opinions have been firmly stated but they lack facts to support them. Since your speculative opinions don't seem to evolve when I provide facts to the contrary from my direct personal experience, I don't think it is worth my time to continue efforts to correct your false assumptions.
 

WaspAir

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stopped caring at 1000
Well I think they are cool and cannot wait for the ride Jon offered me only Patches is still out of annul because I been ill an before that could not make my brother go work on it as I know how sick he really feels. But soon Jon.
No worries. I'll still be here when you're ready.
 

GA Rotor Guy

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Well I think they are cool and cannot wait for the ride Jon offered me only Patches is still out of annul because I been ill an before that could not make my brother go work on it as I know how sick he really feels. But soon Jon.
No worries. I'll still be here when you're ready.
If I ever get out to Cal again... I will look up WaspAir...

That is one cool gyro... wish it were in the budget. :)
 

Dmorris

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Somerset Kentucky
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I currently own an IFR Carbon Cub FX3. This is my 3rd Carbon Cub. Owned a Xenon, 2 TAF 2000's.
Total Flight Time
Thousands and adding every week!
Those Carbon Cubs are nice. I was blown away when I found out how much they cost..... but they are very nice!

I remember back before sport pilot came along, and right after the beginning of SP, how real piper cubs, nice ones at that, were going for somewhere around 30 grand. I thought it was crazy how much they sold for, seeing how ercoupes and champs and taylorcrafts and even cessna 120 / 140 / 150 sold for half as much. But Ive noticed that now all those have come up in price and the cub has stayed right in around 30 grand. And really I think its a awesome value and a fun airplane to own and fly. I know a Carbon cub is not really even close to the same as a real cub, having twice the horsepower and a thousand other upgrades, but as Ive said before, Carbon Cubs and other 100 grand + aircraft aren't even remotely on my radar. But a 30-50 grand aircraft is within my striking distance and a cub would be a fun one to have.

Have you ever considered a Vans RV ? Other than the RV10, you can get pretty much any other model RV for under 100K. For 60-90K you can get a really decked out RV-6 or 7 or 8...... I wouldn't get a 9 because its not aerobatic. Any of those RV's would be off the ground in less than 500 feet, and climb at well over 2000 fpm, PLUS cruise at close to 200 miles per hour indicated, and give you the ability to loop and roll if the mood strikes. And whats best about a RV is the way they handle, words can't describe it but no other airplane flys a nicely as a RV.
I never seriously considered a Vans RV but have followed them closely for years. For all the reasons you mentioned they are as good a value as anything else on the market.

I agree Carbon Cubs are expensive. Mine has a full glass executive panel, airbag seatbelts, extended cargo compartment, leather seats, auto-pilot, LED lighting package, etc., etc. Cost well north of 200k. Since I historically don’t keep aircraft very long the deciding factor for me was re-sale. You don’t see many used ones on the market and when you do they usually move quickly and at a premium. From my limited research I found most owners that kept their Carbon Cubs for 2 years or more got their money back. Some even made a profit. Don’t think anyone has ever taken a serious hit on one.

Another huge selling point for me was the ability to fly low and slow. I spent my first 30 years of flying going higher and faster with every new aircraft. I enjoy cruising along in the Cub at speeds as low as the mid 30’s then climbing to whatever altitude I choose at 2000 fpm.

I’ve found it much easier to sell top of the line aircraft. I even sold my Xenon for more than I paid for it. That’s after flying it for 5 years.
 
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