A Question For Rusty Nance

joe nelson

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I would like to know a little about the seats in the Apache. I know they're designed to afford the crew some protection in the event of a hard landing. Do these seats have something like an oleo strut or damper to soften the impact. I've been interested in a safety seat since I saw a Dominator doing zero length landing on u-tube.
 

Arnie Madsen

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Hi Joe Nelson. One day I may post the drawings for the Hughes 500 Helicopter seat mount. It is probably what you are interested in, the seats are "clamped" to the main 'A ' Frame tubes behind the pilot seat and in a hard landing , after the skids have crushed and the lower fuselage has crushed , the seat clamps will then slide down maybe 10" or so.

You have many interesting questions Joe. I think there is an inventor lurking in the back of your mind. Keep thinking in such a manner.

Greetings from Canada
Arnie Madsen
 

rustynance

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Joe,
Similiar arrangment to what Arnie describes in the Hughes 500 (Both aircraft originally built by the same manufacturer) with the addition of very large springs to control the rate at which the seat strokes. The springs also act to reduce loads during seat height adjustment. The seat is only part of the G-tolerance built into the Apache. The main wheel struts are a big part of it as well as the ability of the gun to collapse in should the aircraft land excessively hard. Aircraft damage will result but essentially the pilot could never flair in an autorotation at minimum rate of descent airspeed and both pilots would live.
Rusty
 

joe nelson

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I have owned an AA-7B, Quad City Challenger, WAR P-47 and have flown several other type
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12000hrs approx
Morning Arnie,

I have had a love for anything with a rotor on it since my earliest days in the Army. My helicopter experience was short before the military had me flying fixed wing. At every opportunity, I would go across the field to beg a ride from the helicopter guys until my boss put a stop to it.

The question about the seat was to gleen some information so that I can incorporate this safety feature into a design that I'm working on. The problem is, safety features are heavy when everything needs to light. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel just make it apply to gyros. To coin a new word, "gyrineering" these problems.

The areas where I'm going, Arnie, are: Roll-over protection(structure), impact protection(seats and landing gear), lifting performance & vibration control(rotors) and powerplant improvements.

My wife says, I'm wearing rut between my computer and my shop. I guess the only thing that I've invented is a "blog-o-copter".:peace:
 

joe nelson

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I have owned an AA-7B, Quad City Challenger, WAR P-47 and have flown several other type
Total Flight Time
12000hrs approx
Rusty,

My thought was to use the mast as a guide for the seat on impact. It could travel around 4-6 inches reducing some G-load. I think it would only weigh a pound or two at the most and could be applied to any Benson style gyros where the seat is attached to the mast. On larger gyros, the OH-6 "A" frame mount could be used but at a greater weight penalty.

I'm just thinking outside the box and I thought I'd bounce it off someone who had some expertise.
THANKS,
 

Mike Schallmann

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If you have ever seen a gyro crash or been in one that hit the dirt you would understand why this idea is not really useful. Ive never seen a gyro crash that landed flat on it belly and that is the only way this type of seat would help. Most gyros roll over, hit nose down and contact the earth in someother abnormal position. A good seat belt/harness with some degree of "crush" zone in the nose would probably afford more protection than this type of seat --the major damage occurs when the rotorblades hit the dirt and the stored energy bends twists and generally destroys the gyro- -- if you do a PPO -the gyro will self destruct in the air and literally nothing you do will save you -- a good design ,skill,and, knowledge offers the best protection ---of course this is only my opinion--
 

joe nelson

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I have owned an AA-7B, Quad City Challenger, WAR P-47 and have flown several other type
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Mike,

I have not seen a gyro crash and I never want to see one. Unfortunately, I can't say as much for helicopters or airplanes. Even one in your fair state of Arizona(Libby AAF).

Safety devices are rarely used in the ways they were intended but they still save lifes and midigate injury. The Arizona crash was typical of this. An OV-1 returning to Libby from training over Tucson experienced an uncontained compressor wheel failure. The pilot had about 3000 in type and was a commerical pilot in civilian life felt that he could land safely at Libby. As the approach continued it became clear that the plane wasn't going to make the airfield. When the ejection occurred the plane was at a 90 degree right bank,slightly nose down, 140kts and around 500' in altitude...not exactly a text book escape. Both crewmen lived and the system worked even when not used correctly. Moral to the story is it may save some and that a good start.:usa2:
 

Mike Schallmann

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Joe -If you have never seen a crash or want to see one ( even on tape) then I can understand you reluctance to accecpt what I am saying--however that does not change the reality of crashes in which pilots are able to survive and crashes which are not survivable--

Any safety device has to be effective in the type of aircraft it is used in-- what I am saying is that the type of seat that you described is virtually usless in a gyro- belly flop crashes in gyros are very rare -and those that do occur are survivable by the pilot--what you would have is a 4-5 # chunk of weight that is taking up space and using power to carry it

BTW --current ejection seats used by the military have the ability to be used at virtually any elevation above ground and at ALMOST any angle (except pointed at mother earth at low altitude above ground) and give the pilot -or whoever the highest chance of surviveability
 
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joe nelson

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cincinnati,ohio
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I have owned an AA-7B, Quad City Challenger, WAR P-47 and have flown several other type
Total Flight Time
12000hrs approx
Mike,

The OV-1 was built in the early 60's with a MB Mk 5A seat. I have seen the ESPAC and ACES seats tested as low as 250' inverted at zero airspeed but the Mk5 isn't one of them! The Army does not fly aircraft with ejection systems anymore due to the bad results from the Mk5 seat!
 

joe nelson

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I have owned an AA-7B, Quad City Challenger, WAR P-47 and have flown several other type
Total Flight Time
12000hrs approx
Mike,

I saw a picture of your gyro while looking at the PRA website and I would like to appologize for dismissing your comments...you do practice what you preach! I can see the crush zone in your bird.

I'm not a stranger to aviation incidents/accidents. In my 40 years of flying, I've lost many friends both civilian and military due to one reason or another. I don't like putting people in body bags or on back boards! I have done both! Please understand, that my first tour of duty in VietNam was as a medic (CMB) and that experience will always affect my attitude about safety issues.
 

joe nelson

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Location
cincinnati,ohio
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I have owned an AA-7B, Quad City Challenger, WAR P-47 and have flown several other type
Total Flight Time
12000hrs approx
Hognose,

I read your blog/joke. Does this qualify as a good S.F. watch?
 

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