- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Messages
- 18,446
- Location
- Santa Maria, California
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- Givens Predator
- Total Flight Time
- 2600+ in rotorcraft
In my opinion people sometimes imagine they understand because the words are familiar.
This is a Flight Instructor in the USA trying to communicate with a flight instructor in the UK so I have moved it to training.
Originally posted by Vance View Post
Thank you for your thoughtful input Phil.
As a flight instructor you have experienced more pilot errors than most people can make in a lifetime or even imagine.
As a flight instructor when I say "fly like a gyroplane pilot" I am trying to communicate that a gyroplane may not respond well to fixed wing habits and protocol.
We are getting slightly distracted from the initial point of the Chris Lord accident which I acknowledge is partly my fault for introducing another point! So for the sake of completeness I’ll give my own view on gyroplanes more generally.
My comment wasn't aimed at you necessarily and my criticism of terms like “fly like a gyro pilot” isn’t of a technique that is forced upon you by regulation or guidance (as your flying the pattern seems to be?) nor differences simply due to the mechanics of the aircraft.
The fly like a gyro pilot phrase is usually meant that every approach is at idle and a spot landing, yet we seem oblivious to the fact most accidents are in the take off and landing phase!
The other favourite is making approaches to land across the runway to negate any crosswind, for example. Which just means a) if you make an error you fall off the edge of the runway and into what? Landing lights, soft ground etc and again it doesn’t fit well with most others in the pattern.
Particular gyroplane snake oil is the nonsense suggesting the need to turn violently in S turns to "wind up the rotor RPM" before a emergency landing?! If fact I have a YouTube clip for you to listen to the pilot narrate his own efforts and the recommendation from his instructor. In focusing on these S turns he very almost hits wires.
https://youtu.be/vk4gRGEaohY
So I think aside from the differences in technique as are required by the mechanics of the aircraft class probably best to stick what has kept aviators safe for decades. There is no need for catch phrases or snake oil so that we might hope to sell something that has been offered for free elsewhere.
Like I said Vance that isn’t aimed at you as I’ve no idea what or how you teach but we all know people that this cap fits and in a way is part of the issue we have been discussing here with the brake / flight switch. That is a fundamental feature that has very little understanding of and indeed when I raise the point I get slightly heckled by a student pilot with a confused view in a different aircraft. Same with the view on flying in the pattern in a gyroplane in the US. Same as I say with take off / landing accidents. Yet no doubt we have a bunch of fancy catch phrases we can roll out. Maybe?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I typical fixed wing pilot lands at more than 50kts of indicated air speed.
Most gyroplane pilots don't do well touching down at 50kts.
Why the focus on speed at touch down?
Pilots will touch down when the aircraft runs out of energy and the wing (in our case a rotor) is no longer flying. The number is irrelevant and most fixed wing pilots probably don't even know what that number is because by the time the aircraft is in the float they are just looking out of the window. That is the exact same thing in a gyroplane. Don't gyroplanes and aeroplanes share a common aim of - fly a stable approach at a nominated airspeed, round out, float, hold off and touch down?
As it happens I have a fixed wing aircraft, a DR107 One Design and I used to fly a Hughes 369D. I initially learnt to fly in a PA28 decades ago and I’m rated in Robinson R44, Cabri G2. I won’t bore you with a long list but they all have different speeds to fly at various times during take off, landing or maybe in the aerobatic aeroplane during a loop, roll, etc. Some even have flaps, retractable gear, manual carb heat, mixture, variable props, one is even a turbine! Yet isn’t that just part of being a pilot?
We make the effort and take the time to learn our craft and if that means remembering different things for different aircraft that is what needs to be done? I don’t ever recall my aerobatic instructor telling me to fly like an aerobatic pilot. Just fly like a pilot and remember the appropriate items for the aircraft you are in?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
In a takeoff roll in a fixed wing the controls are often centered and the takeoff roll is started.
A gyroplane pilot likes to have some rotor rpm before commencing the takeoff roll.
In my experience most fixed wing pilots rotate at some specific airspeed and command the rotation.
In my opinion a good gyroplane pilot allows the gyroplane fly when it is ready at some combination of indicated airspeed and rotor rpm and commanding it to fly is in my opinion poor airmanship.
It is essential that a gyroplane has some RRPM before take off roll!
Without getting stuck on how you are using the term rotate to mean Vr or simply in GA terms a point at which you increase some back stick to climb away. Actually no fixed wing pilot needs to pull the aircraft off the runway and those that do just display a poor technique. Indeed you can read about why an F22 Raptor pilot did just that and ended on his belly.
But lets get back to gyroplanes. We absolutely DO command a climb away. Otherwise how else do you respect the height velocity curve?
It surely isn’t “some” random combination of airspeed and rotor RPM. Indeed I can give you some absolute numbers now.
If you had been taught to look at the respective instrument then you'd see that a typical Auto-Gyro Sport will want to unstick at around 300RRPM and depending upon your technique that will be around 40mph( if you have the stick more aft in a "wheel balance technique") or circa 60 mph if you unload the stick slightly in the take off roll.
In terms of climbing away (at my school circa height above 1metre or 3ft 3in in old English money) we climb out at 70mph to 300ft then adopt best climb speed which for sake of argument is circa 60mph.
Those numbers will be those numbers within a few % all the time and are repeatable - if you fly an MT you'll be able to find the same. It may not be a stand out item you'll have looked for before because you are not looking for them and whoever taught you didn't look for them either. If you look at my take off technique compared video link below then those numbers can be repeated at will.
https://youtu.be/kW65IY39MPU
But again that isn’t flying like a gyro pilot is it? It is all just trying to be sensible and fly with good airmanship to keep us safe. In terms of performance it also helps to try and fly accurately and with some idea on what one is trying to achieve. So perhaps because we are driving an aircraft we might make reference to things like angle of attack or drag. Indeed it has taken until the new rotor system 3 for there to be a realisation that drag is having a major impact on the take off and hence the new technique being suggested if you pre-rotate to 300rrpm.
Its why in the UK we have more than a fair share of aircraft failing to get airborne and crashing off the end of the runway because they have no real metric they are using to identify when flight is possible. They just put full power and hope for the best. It isn't helped by the use of "power curve" instead of "drag curve". All these things are designed to dumb down something that creates air minded people so they do not fall into simple traps.
For some reason the same people who like to use the term “fly like a gyro pilot” also like to dumb everything down and believe everyone gets mentally max’d out if you need to actually refer to a real number or instrument.
When I suggested I had changed what I teach take off wise one very experienced instructor in the UK said (and I quote him almost verbatim) "your take off technique is too complex because it means the student has to look at the Rotor RPM guage". I mean really?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
In the USA a gyroplane pilot is specifically instructed to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic.
I feel a gyroplane pilot needs to be more aware of fixed wing traffic because of the speed differential and because fixed wing pilot are looking for wings and find rotorcraft difficult to see.
I agree with the need for awareness because of the performance differences but why avoid the circuit? Surely good RT and everyone in the pattern having good airmanship means we can all fly together? Otherwise you create in the minds of others that you will yield regardless.
One issue in trying to fly something unique to a gyroplane is what happens when you fly at my airfield for example? what do you do then? The guys there won't know what non-standard procedure you are using and neither will anyone else in the pattern.
In the UK its not an issue tbh but if you have to do it then I hear you but I’m not convinced it makes much sense.
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I have not attached the negative connotation to "fly like a gyroplane pilot" that you have Phil. To me being considered a gyroplane pilot is a high honor.
I'm not sure you understand my point of "fly like a gyro pilot" in the way it gets used in the UK, perhaps my examples above help?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I watched both videos and did not see any confusion or inconsistencies about switching from brake to flight and back to brake again.
Chris is flying in a very chaotic environment and needs to be ready to go when he hears from the air boss.
What am I missing Phil?
I'm not saying he is confused I'm saying he has a different process. Merely to highlight that I can easily see how having no plan around the brake/flight switch opens things up to error. Nothing more, nothing less. You can read the words from prior posts its not a criticism and its not suggesting that any of the brake/ flight mode was a factor in any accident I'm just highlighting the potential snags.
As for ready to go when the air boss shouts. None of that means or should mean a degradation of airmanship or safety. If you need to line up then pre-rotate and that is your process then stick with the process. How many times has deviation from plan ended in an accident? Then nobody goes because the runway is blocked with your wreck.
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I don't know any flight instructors in the USA who would not make people aware of what they thought was a problem because of a fear of missing ten dollars down the road. Several CFIs in the USA have been very vocal about what they feel are issues.
I feel you may be confusing professional behavior with greed.
I think much of this post has ventured far away from that of the accident and the point being made about stick force and the brake flight switch but it is good to exchange views.
Actually what are/ is the process for someone to be a US gyroplane instructor? Do they need much experience? Ground school? Flight time? I know very little about the US gyroplane community. Although I did teach a helicopter instructor to fly a gyro who was working in Florida for the guys that got the Auto-Gyro gig but I think it all went pear shaped quite quickly commercially? I’m not sure.I have to say from the conversations I had with this guy there weren’t very many barriers to entry. I don’t know.
In the UK the situation is quite different where people are very reluctant to speak up. I’m not sure it has that much to do with greed as it does a general fear of not being included in whatever it maybe… They all get along in order to get along. How do you feel as it happens about the rear seat and stick combination in a 2017 Sport? Do you think it has the potential to snag over time?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I have flown and instructed in many different makes and models of gyroplanes and they all have strengths and weaknesses. I don’t see the value in focusing on the negative. I do not see a particular manufacturer currently over represented in gyroplane accidents and the majority of accidents in the USA are pilot error.
Most of my clients will be taking their proficiency check ride in a gyroplane different than what I trained them in. I do not find a challenge transitioning them into the check ride aircraft. When they use the appropriate check lists the transition has been relatively easy.
I don't think I am focused on a negative, other than the point initially raised in the context of a fatal accident is by definition negative.
I would agree there are no real make/model that are stand out accident and pilot error is the major factor - but then doesn't that suddenly get to the heart of everything I've been saying?
In this case it isn't the brake/flight switch of issue as much as good communication around it and understanding how it works. I hear you on check lists but this can't be a check list item because its done just before/ as you line up and needs to be committed to memory - which is why doing it consistently and having a plan keeps you safe.
The fact that most gyroplanes get written off in take off or landing phase tells its own story and in my opinion its a training issue/ syllabus issue and despite all the PR/hype/suggestion that we are so much further on; the silly accidents we do have don't tell the same story.
Indeed the perception of what we do is very poor. We can all talk about centreline thrust and low g - good grief the PRA have been doing so since the 1960's - and of course its important to keep that understood BUT that isn't why gyroplanes crash in the main today. They crash because perhaps in the focus on engine failures and low g we forget the other things that it is good to plan for.
This is a Flight Instructor in the USA trying to communicate with a flight instructor in the UK so I have moved it to training.
Originally posted by Vance View Post
Thank you for your thoughtful input Phil.
As a flight instructor you have experienced more pilot errors than most people can make in a lifetime or even imagine.
As a flight instructor when I say "fly like a gyroplane pilot" I am trying to communicate that a gyroplane may not respond well to fixed wing habits and protocol.
We are getting slightly distracted from the initial point of the Chris Lord accident which I acknowledge is partly my fault for introducing another point! So for the sake of completeness I’ll give my own view on gyroplanes more generally.
My comment wasn't aimed at you necessarily and my criticism of terms like “fly like a gyro pilot” isn’t of a technique that is forced upon you by regulation or guidance (as your flying the pattern seems to be?) nor differences simply due to the mechanics of the aircraft.
The fly like a gyro pilot phrase is usually meant that every approach is at idle and a spot landing, yet we seem oblivious to the fact most accidents are in the take off and landing phase!
The other favourite is making approaches to land across the runway to negate any crosswind, for example. Which just means a) if you make an error you fall off the edge of the runway and into what? Landing lights, soft ground etc and again it doesn’t fit well with most others in the pattern.
Particular gyroplane snake oil is the nonsense suggesting the need to turn violently in S turns to "wind up the rotor RPM" before a emergency landing?! If fact I have a YouTube clip for you to listen to the pilot narrate his own efforts and the recommendation from his instructor. In focusing on these S turns he very almost hits wires.
https://youtu.be/vk4gRGEaohY
So I think aside from the differences in technique as are required by the mechanics of the aircraft class probably best to stick what has kept aviators safe for decades. There is no need for catch phrases or snake oil so that we might hope to sell something that has been offered for free elsewhere.
Like I said Vance that isn’t aimed at you as I’ve no idea what or how you teach but we all know people that this cap fits and in a way is part of the issue we have been discussing here with the brake / flight switch. That is a fundamental feature that has very little understanding of and indeed when I raise the point I get slightly heckled by a student pilot with a confused view in a different aircraft. Same with the view on flying in the pattern in a gyroplane in the US. Same as I say with take off / landing accidents. Yet no doubt we have a bunch of fancy catch phrases we can roll out. Maybe?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I typical fixed wing pilot lands at more than 50kts of indicated air speed.
Most gyroplane pilots don't do well touching down at 50kts.
Why the focus on speed at touch down?
Pilots will touch down when the aircraft runs out of energy and the wing (in our case a rotor) is no longer flying. The number is irrelevant and most fixed wing pilots probably don't even know what that number is because by the time the aircraft is in the float they are just looking out of the window. That is the exact same thing in a gyroplane. Don't gyroplanes and aeroplanes share a common aim of - fly a stable approach at a nominated airspeed, round out, float, hold off and touch down?
As it happens I have a fixed wing aircraft, a DR107 One Design and I used to fly a Hughes 369D. I initially learnt to fly in a PA28 decades ago and I’m rated in Robinson R44, Cabri G2. I won’t bore you with a long list but they all have different speeds to fly at various times during take off, landing or maybe in the aerobatic aeroplane during a loop, roll, etc. Some even have flaps, retractable gear, manual carb heat, mixture, variable props, one is even a turbine! Yet isn’t that just part of being a pilot?
We make the effort and take the time to learn our craft and if that means remembering different things for different aircraft that is what needs to be done? I don’t ever recall my aerobatic instructor telling me to fly like an aerobatic pilot. Just fly like a pilot and remember the appropriate items for the aircraft you are in?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
In a takeoff roll in a fixed wing the controls are often centered and the takeoff roll is started.
A gyroplane pilot likes to have some rotor rpm before commencing the takeoff roll.
In my experience most fixed wing pilots rotate at some specific airspeed and command the rotation.
In my opinion a good gyroplane pilot allows the gyroplane fly when it is ready at some combination of indicated airspeed and rotor rpm and commanding it to fly is in my opinion poor airmanship.
It is essential that a gyroplane has some RRPM before take off roll!
Without getting stuck on how you are using the term rotate to mean Vr or simply in GA terms a point at which you increase some back stick to climb away. Actually no fixed wing pilot needs to pull the aircraft off the runway and those that do just display a poor technique. Indeed you can read about why an F22 Raptor pilot did just that and ended on his belly.
But lets get back to gyroplanes. We absolutely DO command a climb away. Otherwise how else do you respect the height velocity curve?
It surely isn’t “some” random combination of airspeed and rotor RPM. Indeed I can give you some absolute numbers now.
If you had been taught to look at the respective instrument then you'd see that a typical Auto-Gyro Sport will want to unstick at around 300RRPM and depending upon your technique that will be around 40mph( if you have the stick more aft in a "wheel balance technique") or circa 60 mph if you unload the stick slightly in the take off roll.
In terms of climbing away (at my school circa height above 1metre or 3ft 3in in old English money) we climb out at 70mph to 300ft then adopt best climb speed which for sake of argument is circa 60mph.
Those numbers will be those numbers within a few % all the time and are repeatable - if you fly an MT you'll be able to find the same. It may not be a stand out item you'll have looked for before because you are not looking for them and whoever taught you didn't look for them either. If you look at my take off technique compared video link below then those numbers can be repeated at will.
https://youtu.be/kW65IY39MPU
But again that isn’t flying like a gyro pilot is it? It is all just trying to be sensible and fly with good airmanship to keep us safe. In terms of performance it also helps to try and fly accurately and with some idea on what one is trying to achieve. So perhaps because we are driving an aircraft we might make reference to things like angle of attack or drag. Indeed it has taken until the new rotor system 3 for there to be a realisation that drag is having a major impact on the take off and hence the new technique being suggested if you pre-rotate to 300rrpm.
Its why in the UK we have more than a fair share of aircraft failing to get airborne and crashing off the end of the runway because they have no real metric they are using to identify when flight is possible. They just put full power and hope for the best. It isn't helped by the use of "power curve" instead of "drag curve". All these things are designed to dumb down something that creates air minded people so they do not fall into simple traps.
For some reason the same people who like to use the term “fly like a gyro pilot” also like to dumb everything down and believe everyone gets mentally max’d out if you need to actually refer to a real number or instrument.
When I suggested I had changed what I teach take off wise one very experienced instructor in the UK said (and I quote him almost verbatim) "your take off technique is too complex because it means the student has to look at the Rotor RPM guage". I mean really?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
In the USA a gyroplane pilot is specifically instructed to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic.
I feel a gyroplane pilot needs to be more aware of fixed wing traffic because of the speed differential and because fixed wing pilot are looking for wings and find rotorcraft difficult to see.
I agree with the need for awareness because of the performance differences but why avoid the circuit? Surely good RT and everyone in the pattern having good airmanship means we can all fly together? Otherwise you create in the minds of others that you will yield regardless.
One issue in trying to fly something unique to a gyroplane is what happens when you fly at my airfield for example? what do you do then? The guys there won't know what non-standard procedure you are using and neither will anyone else in the pattern.
In the UK its not an issue tbh but if you have to do it then I hear you but I’m not convinced it makes much sense.
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I have not attached the negative connotation to "fly like a gyroplane pilot" that you have Phil. To me being considered a gyroplane pilot is a high honor.
I'm not sure you understand my point of "fly like a gyro pilot" in the way it gets used in the UK, perhaps my examples above help?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I watched both videos and did not see any confusion or inconsistencies about switching from brake to flight and back to brake again.
Chris is flying in a very chaotic environment and needs to be ready to go when he hears from the air boss.
What am I missing Phil?
I'm not saying he is confused I'm saying he has a different process. Merely to highlight that I can easily see how having no plan around the brake/flight switch opens things up to error. Nothing more, nothing less. You can read the words from prior posts its not a criticism and its not suggesting that any of the brake/ flight mode was a factor in any accident I'm just highlighting the potential snags.
As for ready to go when the air boss shouts. None of that means or should mean a degradation of airmanship or safety. If you need to line up then pre-rotate and that is your process then stick with the process. How many times has deviation from plan ended in an accident? Then nobody goes because the runway is blocked with your wreck.
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I don't know any flight instructors in the USA who would not make people aware of what they thought was a problem because of a fear of missing ten dollars down the road. Several CFIs in the USA have been very vocal about what they feel are issues.
I feel you may be confusing professional behavior with greed.
I think much of this post has ventured far away from that of the accident and the point being made about stick force and the brake flight switch but it is good to exchange views.
Actually what are/ is the process for someone to be a US gyroplane instructor? Do they need much experience? Ground school? Flight time? I know very little about the US gyroplane community. Although I did teach a helicopter instructor to fly a gyro who was working in Florida for the guys that got the Auto-Gyro gig but I think it all went pear shaped quite quickly commercially? I’m not sure.I have to say from the conversations I had with this guy there weren’t very many barriers to entry. I don’t know.
In the UK the situation is quite different where people are very reluctant to speak up. I’m not sure it has that much to do with greed as it does a general fear of not being included in whatever it maybe… They all get along in order to get along. How do you feel as it happens about the rear seat and stick combination in a 2017 Sport? Do you think it has the potential to snag over time?
Originally posted by Vance View Post
I have flown and instructed in many different makes and models of gyroplanes and they all have strengths and weaknesses. I don’t see the value in focusing on the negative. I do not see a particular manufacturer currently over represented in gyroplane accidents and the majority of accidents in the USA are pilot error.
Most of my clients will be taking their proficiency check ride in a gyroplane different than what I trained them in. I do not find a challenge transitioning them into the check ride aircraft. When they use the appropriate check lists the transition has been relatively easy.
I don't think I am focused on a negative, other than the point initially raised in the context of a fatal accident is by definition negative.
I would agree there are no real make/model that are stand out accident and pilot error is the major factor - but then doesn't that suddenly get to the heart of everything I've been saying?
In this case it isn't the brake/flight switch of issue as much as good communication around it and understanding how it works. I hear you on check lists but this can't be a check list item because its done just before/ as you line up and needs to be committed to memory - which is why doing it consistently and having a plan keeps you safe.
The fact that most gyroplanes get written off in take off or landing phase tells its own story and in my opinion its a training issue/ syllabus issue and despite all the PR/hype/suggestion that we are so much further on; the silly accidents we do have don't tell the same story.
Indeed the perception of what we do is very poor. We can all talk about centreline thrust and low g - good grief the PRA have been doing so since the 1960's - and of course its important to keep that understood BUT that isn't why gyroplanes crash in the main today. They crash because perhaps in the focus on engine failures and low g we forget the other things that it is good to plan for.
