MTO classic vs magni 16 trainer. In your opinions what really are the differences?

Oh good point Tyger… Probably didn’t have my morning coffee when I posted that… The Magni with 915 really looks nice!
 
OMG - Mike G. you haven’t taken woke training yet and still using Master/Slave? This post should be removed immediately! 😏 Nice placard! How about Forward and Retreating Blade? For those who do not have sense of humor, this is neither political nor personal attack.
Dave
Because you said so, I took your post as humour and not personal or political, but even after quite a few cups of coffee I still don't understand it, perhaps because I still don't know what woke really means.
I'd appreciate an explanation even if just to augment my sense of humour.
Mike
 
I wonder how many people here get your sense of humour, Don Quixote? 😊
 
Tyger, I sometimes wonder how many have seen the parallel between my quest to overcome rotor vibration and Don Quixote's to overcome those windmills.
The original link to Don Quixote was from my French RTB colleague Jérôme Prompsy who regularly calls me DonQ and himself Sancho so any praise for humour must go to him.
Mike
 
Tyger, I sometimes wonder how many have seen the parallel between my quest to overcome rotor vibration and Don Quixote's to overcome those windmills.
The original link to Don Quixote was from my French RTB colleague Jérôme Prompsy who regularly calls me DonQ and himself Sancho so any praise for humour must go to him.
Mike
There is a story that Juan de la Cierva y Codorníu after four years of mishaps where his Autogiro rolled because of dissymmetry of lift in forward flight that he went to the opera Man of La Mancha and was inspired by the hinges in the windmill on the stage, put hinges in his rotor and had his first successful flight January 30, 1923.

I feel it is a good story.
 

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That's a good story, but it's hard to imagine stage windmills being built so accurately :sneaky:
Of course, the musical Man of La Mancha premiered in 1965...
Evidently there was a french opera by Massenet called Don Quichotte that premiered in 1910, but it doesn't seem ever to have been performed in Spain.
 
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I read somewhere, that someone else (who had a friend, who stalled his plane) got the gyro idea and then went to Cierva.
Who then, as businessman, claimed it as his own. True or not?
 
Andino
I don’t know why AG don’t use spherical bearings, but since I never proposed this solution to them there’s no reason to suppose they would.

You must realise the problems facing any manufacturer when considering a design change once in production.

  • Unlike a home builder who is only responsible for his own design/build, the manufacturer needs to carry out a detailed design study to ensure that he cannot be held liable for any accident that could possibly (even if unfairly) be blamed on the change.
  • He then risks having existing customers saying that the change proves that the old design was inadequate and demanding an upgrade free of charge.
  • If the design change is to a system used by a competitor, he risks being accused of copying or demonstrating that the competitor was cleverer than he was.
  • Finally, as explained to me by Arrowcopter when I demonstrated to them that one of their design features was inadequate, they agreed but pointed out that getting German approval had been a long process and they couldn’t afford to lose any more time jumping through hoops to get a mod approved.
As a result, manufacturers are often trapped into keeping their old design even if they’d like to change.

Mike
All good points, though AG have made changes / improvements to their rotor systems in the past, and hopefully will continue to do so. As to the bearing issue, to me that's much less of an issue than the issues with the blades themselves. I would think the liabilities of not building an improved system outweigh the liabilities of staying with things as they are.
I think with regular greasing etc the bushings last significantly longer than 300 hours. Again a simple matter of checking for any play as part of the preflight. When flying an MTO, if you are not conscientious about the 5 hour greasing, you will be able to feel it in the smoothness / shake when flying. Nevertheless it would seem to be a straightforward thing to make improvements, especially because they claim certification, better to make changes proactively than be forced by certifying agencies to make them when things fail.
 
That's a good story, but it's hard to imagine stage windmills being built so accurately :sneaky:
Of course, the musical Man of La Mancha premiered in 1965...
Evidently there was a french opera by Massenet called Don Quichotte that premiered in 1910, but it doesn't seem ever to have been performed in Spain.
I stand corrected; Don Quichotte was the opera in the story. Thank you.
 
I read somewhere, that someone else (who had a friend, who stalled his plane) got the gyro idea and then went to Cierva.
Who then, as businessman, claimed it as his own. True or not?I have read in several places is Juan de la Cierva was an engineering student and designed and built a remarkable three engine bomber in nine months to compete for a military contract. On one of its first flights the test pilot stalled it and spun her in destroying the aircraft although the pilot survived.
I have read in several places that Juan de la Cierva was an engineering student and designed and built a remarkable three engine bomber in nine months to compete for a military contract. On one of its first flights the test pilot stalled it and spun her in destroying the aircraft although the pilot survived.

Juan de la Cierva decided to build an aircraft that wouldn’t stall and begin working with models in a university wind tunnel.

The flexible blades of his model performed like flapping hinges.

He pulled the top wing off a surplus World War I fighter and put a rotor on it.

He wrapped a rope around the middle of the rotor and either pulling it with several men or tied it to a fence and began his take post for a pre-rotator.

It would take off and roll over and they had at least four non fatal crashes.

When he put flapping hinges at the rotor roots it had its first successful flight in January of 1922.

Later he found he needed lead/lag hinges to keep the blades from cracking.

Much later when Juan de la Cierva was experimenting with direct control he invented the swash plate that to this day is used on most helicopters.

Most of the early helicopters were licensees of Cierva or Pitcairn who was a licensee of Cierva.

Juan de la Cierva was killed in a DC2 in 1936 flying commercial out of Croydon Airfield. The flight had been delayed due to low visibility and as it took off; it drifted slightly off course hitting a house on a rise near the airfield.
 
All good points, though AG have made changes / improvements to their rotor systems in the past, and hopefully will continue to do so. As to the bearing issue, to me that's much less of an issue than the issues with the blades themselves. I would think the liabilities of not building an improved system outweigh the liabilities of staying with things as they are.
I think with regular greasing etc the bushings last significantly longer than 300 hours. Again a simple matter of checking for any play as part of the preflight. When flying an MTO, if you are not conscientious about the 5 hour greasing, you will be able to feel it in the smoothness / shake when flying. Nevertheless it would seem to be a straightforward thing to make improvements, especially because they claim certification, better to make changes proactively than be forced by certifying agencies to make them when things fail.

AutoGyro if they are having cracks in their rotor blades in the UK as has been stated probably need to focus on redoing their extrusion die and perhaps making their rotor a bit heavier like Averso has because it seems Averso Stella are not experiencing these issues with around 1500 samples in the field since 2004. Their hub bar clamping mechanism is to me a bit strange.
Having said that just because someone in gyroplane world says stuff doesn't make it a fact. Today I was told by an old gyroplane instructor about something in aerodynamics that he described but could not name ... its actually called "keel effect" and as I tried to listen to understand him, I realized what he was trying to describe (keel effect) but his logic was completely backwards to what actually happens (net dihedral effect increases with more vertical area above CG than below). So AG should make changes but make them based on actual data not because people say things in gyroplane universe.
 
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AutoGyro if they are having cracks in their rotor blades in the UK as has been stated probably need to focus on redoing their extrusion die and perhaps making their rotor a bit heavier like Averso has because it seems Averso Stella are not experiencing these issues with around 1500 samples in the field since 2004. Their hub bar clamping mechanism is to me a bit strange.
All AutoGyro has to do is produce their "university study" which allegedly deemed a 2,500 hour safe life. And, Abid, who are you to accuse their hub bar of being "a bit strange?" Why, that is the market leader you're talking about! Please show proper reverance.
 
All AutoGyro has to do is produce their "university study" which allegedly deemed a 2,500 hour safe life. And, Abid, who are you to accuse their hub bar of being "a bit strange?" Why, that is the market leader you're talking about! Please show proper reverance.
Haha. Man you go hot on AG. All of us can improve and all products can improve. One good thing about Experimental is we can improve them without going through red tape.
 
Haha. Man you go hot on AG. All of us can improve and all products can improve. One good thing about Experimental is we can improve them without going through red tape.
Yes, I do. I think their "university study" does not exist, else they would have quoted it by now. It's all about marketing with them.
 
My newbie reasons I got M-24 instead of Cavalon:

"Big deal" for me:

1. Rotor blades material - composite (Magni) vs aluminum (AG).
2. Frame material - chrome-moly 4130 steel (Magni) vs "kitchen sink" 304 stainless steel (AG).-*
3. Negative caster front wheel (Magni) vs positive caster (AG)

Not so "big deal", but still a factor:

4. Trim system - stepper motor (Magni) vs pneumatic cylinder (AG)
5. Pre-rotator - flex-shaft (Magni) is better than AG system, IMHO.
6. Straight kiel (Magni) vs bent kiel (AG).

Also - Magni let me come to Italy and participate in assembly process and test flights of my gyro at the factory, AG did not provide that opportunity.

*- Correction: Cavalon frame is not made of kitchen sink steel, my mistake, it is made of composite material, which is even worse than 304 steel, IMHO.
 
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My newbie reasons I got M-24 instead of Cavalon:

"Big deal" for me:

1. Rotor blades material - composite (Magni) vs aluminum (AG).
2. Frame material - chrome-moly 4130 steel (Magni) vs "kitchen sink" 304 stainless steel (AG).
3. Negative caster front wheel (Magni) vs positive caster (AG)

Not so "big deal", but still a factor:

4. Trim system - stepper motor (Magni) vs pneumatic cylinder (AG)
5. Pre-rotator - flex-shaft (Magni) is better than AG system, IMHO.
6. Straight kiel (Magni) vs bent kiel (AG).

Also - Magni let me come to Italy and participate in assembly process and test flights of my gyro at the factory, AG did not provide that opportunity.

Good for you but let me correct you
Cavalon is not 304. Its composite which according to your #1 point is somehow better than metal. You'd be wrong but that is what you think obviously. The truth is "it depends".
 
How does rain impact the composite rotors? I know rain will cause little chips in paint on rotors.
 
I try not to fly in rain, for obvious reasons, but I have not seen any impact on my rotor blades, aside from helping to clean the bugs off them.
One odd thing I have noticed is that my rotor goes "quiet" when I fly into rain. That was a little disconcerting the first time it happened!
 
Good for you but let me correct you
Cavalon is not 304. Its composite which according to your #1 point is somehow better than metal.
Composite rotor blades IMHO are better than extruded aluminum ones, I did not know Cavalon has composite frame, it is even worse than stainless, IMHO.
 
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