Battle of the Enclosed SxS Gyros

[CLS447]

Not that I am looking to buy one soon or anything (unless I hit the lottery )
but I thought we could start a forum comparison of the available enclosed 2 place (preferably SxS ) machines.

Also how they are to be sold , prices, build difficulty/time, & availability.

Partial kit availability, engine options, & how to make them more affordable.

First a list of machines......

1. RAF SA
2. Magni Orion M24 http://www.magnigyro.com/models/m24.html
3. Auto-Gyro Cavalon
4. Sport Copter 2 http://www.sportcopter.com/Gyroplanes/SportcopterII/tabid/133/Default.aspx
5. Xenon
6. GT Gyroplanes KRUZA

What did I miss ??

If they all cost about the same, I would like to discuss the pros & cons of all models including even the way they look.

Anything you know or can add would be greatly appreciated !!

PS...Maybe I should start a thread for the tandem models to keep this clean?

 

[aerobatic]

Why only SxS?

Do you need to put your hand on the legs of your passenger while flying? Did will start a new endless thread about dangerous instability in enclosed expensives gyro ;-)

On a more serious matter; sure it's fun to look in the eyes of your passenger to establish contact. I'm thinking to stick some sort of rear view mirror on the canopy of the Calidus to do just that...

Maher

 

[CLS447]

Maher, I will start the Tandem Enclosed thread.

 

[SamL]

1. RAF SA
2. Magni Orion M??
3. Auto-Gyro Cavalon
4. Sport Copter 2
5. Arrowcopter
6. Xenon
7. GT Gyroplanes KRUZA

 

[CLS447]

Thanks, I will add that !

Even just pictures of these machines would be great !

 

[aerobatic]

Maher, I will start the Tandem Enclosed thread.

Does people really choose an enclosed gyro by such feature (tandem or side by side)? When I get interested in gyro, I considered buying a M24 Magni or an Auto-Gyro Calidus based on the availaibility of enclosed gyro for extending my flying time (I'm in Canada).

After trying both, I choose the Calidus for the agility and the visibility. I could have waited for the Cavalon but the higher price tag, the lower visibility and the tedious process to registered a new gyro in Canada was clear arguments among others against it.

Maher

 

[Dmorris]

Does people really choose an enclosed gyro by such feature (tandem or side by side)?

I have 3 times. My Xenon is on the market and if it sells I can't imagine replacing it with anything but a side by side. Just my personal preference.

 

[CLS447]

I agree with Dave's thinking, but sure would like to try the Calidus.

I would surely believe that the tandems would be faster.(less frontal drag)

Maher, which SxS did you try ?

 

[SamL]

I agree with Dave's thinking, but sure would like to try the Calidus.

I would surely believe that the tandems would be faster.(less frontal drag)

Maher, which SxS did you try ?

Single largest thing holding our gyro's back with reference to speed is our rotor disc (our wing). This is the same as fix wing aircraft, reduce the wing area, and the faster you will go.
Cheers SamL..........

 

[aerobatic]

I've tried an M24 Orion. I knew the stick was heavy but I didn't think it will be THAT heavy!

The visibility was great with the curved side doors but the one I flew was very shaky, and since I intend to do lot of movies with it, I was afraid that the shots would be unusable if the camera needed to be attached directly to the structure. They're supposed to fix the vibe problems on the M24 I tried, but they're still waiting for a precision calibration instrument.

Other than that the Orion fly very well, but I just preferred the Calidus.

Maher

 

[WaspAir]

I would surely believe that the tandems would be faster.(less frontal drag)

My side-by-side J-2 was faster than the tandem A&S 18A with basically the same engine. I always suspected that the little stub wings on the J-2 provided some off-loading of the rotor at higher speeds and reduced overall drag a bit, but had no hard data to confirm or disprove it.

P.S. I much prefer side-by-side for communication while instructing.

 

[Aussie_Paul]

Disc AoA enemy..

Disc AoA enemy..

Prior to my accident I spent quite some time experimenting with Rob Patroney and his various blade configurations at that time. We were trying to reduce the Disc AoA for a faster cruise flight.

Aussie Paul.

 

[CLS447]

I gotta say....I am very impressed with the Sportcopter 2 !!

How many have been built/sold ?

If I had the money, This is the way that I might go.

Is it a kit ?

I love the features like the folding mast, adjustable pedals, Lycoming engine.....

If I'm in for 100K ......might as well go the rest.


BTW....my friend got back to PA , from CA,with his $700K MD500 last night.

He will be spending yet another day with his MD instructor, today & then plans on going to MD for some more special instruction !!!

Then it will be time to sit out the storm , in his hangar, where we can all drool over it.

 

[CLS447]

Did any one that went to Mentone pay any attention to the Magni M24 that was there ?

What's up with that ??

 

[Dmorris]

This is how I personally rank enclosed gyro's. I'll admit I've not flown all of them.

#1 Xenon hands down the most pleasurable gyro I've ever flown. 10 inches wider than a Cessna 172 and feels more like riding in a fixed wing on a clam day but can still yank and bank with the best of them.

#2 Sportcopter II. This is a stretch as I've never been in one. The fit and finish is superb and from what I've heard from others the ride is good.

#3 German Autogyro. Not a big fan of tandems but from what little time I spent flying it I enjoyed it. There was a considerable amount of stick shake compared to my Xenon but the pilot did say they had not balanced the blades.

#4 Magni Orion: This is another one I've not flown. I get the impression pilots that have flown this gyro are not particular big fans of the way they handle. Seems this may be a much better point A to point B machine than one that provides an adrenalin rush. I'll admit I may be way off base on this one. Hope to fly one some day!

#5 Sparrowhawk: The only reason I rank Sparrowhawk higher than RAF is cabin size. Again just my personal opinion!

#5: RAF2000. Have owned 2 and have approx. 500 total hours in them. Absolutely loved both! The only real negative is I was always chasing stick shake and cabin hop problems. Could trade one for the another but could not significantly reduce both. When I finally accepted this I quit stressing and enjoyed several years of flying.

 

[ckurz7000]

I, personally, don't care much for Sxs gyros. By virtue of their principle, gyros are already so draggy that a Sxs configuration slows them down even more. I haven't seen a SxS gyro yet that could outrun my Calidus.

On another note: the Arrowcopter is not SxS, just to correct an error in one of the first posts on this thread. But together with the stub wings and an efficient rotor I expect it to haul ass like no other

-- Chris.

 

[CLS447]

I thought that might be the case. I will move the Arrowcopter to the tandem list.

Thanks

I would like to compare price tags on them all. This can make or break the choice.

Can anyone come up with the MSRP in US dollars ?????

Dave thanks for your opinion, but I am still curious what you are going to do if you sell . Do tell.

 

[aerobatic]

On the Auto-gyro web site, there is a tool that will give you the price of each model (Calidus tandem or Cavalon SxS) for a step by step selected configuration.

For example, the canadian version of the Calidus 912 ULS start at around 60 000 Euro and the Cavalon 912 ULS start at 68 000 Euro. But if you add a few extra, the shipping cost, taxes and registration fees, you end up very fast at more than $100 000 just for the Calidus.

Maher

 

[CLS447]

Well I didn't hit the Megaball lottery last night, sooooo..... I can dream can't I ?

I am trying to determine with others experience, knowledge & pricing.....which one I would choose if I did have that kind of bank account.

Is the Sportcopter 2 available immediately or would there be years to wait ?

Would Master Roda even be able to tell me ?

It has been said that there are 3 registered Magni M24's in the US. Why do I not see anything about them yet? Did I miss something ?

 

[CLS447]

Just thinking about all this..... at $100K

Rotorblades.....$5000 at the most

Rotax 914......$40,000 ???

The rest of the kit , that I have to build....... $55,000....that's crazy....what is it billet titanium ??

Delete engine & blades & avionics.......how much then ??

There is always a way to save some money some where, Right ?

Do these machines all hold US patents ?