ROC Done?

Ron,
I'm not trying to start anything but as long as I've been going to Bensen Days they've tried to park the choppers on the grass behind Ernie's trailer. I was videotaping out there one time and they came and asked me to move so they could park an incoming chopper out there. I think if you asked someone from Sunstate they'd tell you that was a designated helo parking area.

Yes that is where they normally park the helicopters, but if you just showed up in a helicopter there is no big H painted on the ground there nor is that area roped off from the public in any way shape or form.
 
Tim: Your tape should have been copied and you should contact a lawyer on evidences.
and Tim . . .John did what a civilized man should do, tell the thruth and try to help the investigation . . . don't you feel patriotic for providing evidences? :usa2:
Heron
No I don't feel Patriotic, I feel I am being blamed for the whole damn mess.
had john not told the cops about my tape the FAA would not have seen it, I could have mde some money selling the footage to the news and chapter13 may or may not still have Aiken. but at least I would not be getting blamed for it.
I will be honest if this is the way all PRA chapters would gang up on someone, I damn sure don't want to go to any more PRA events.
right now I think I am going to sell my gyro project for what I have in it and say to heck with it. sooner or later my Enstrom will be ready for me and I will just still with real helicopters. I like gyros, but if this is what I have to be around to enjoy them, then I will save my money.

I am not going to leave the forum as I enjoy the inflight pics that people like Stan and Tim post. but I think I can enjoy the pics from afar and not go to any events. I did have fun at ROC really had fun later that night around the fire with some of the same people that are now attacking me.

like I said I see who my friends really are.
but that is fine. glad to know now before I had sunk thousands of dollars into my gyro project. I had thought it would be fun to get that gyro flying and join the guys I thought where my friends.

sure glad to know now.

but that is ok I still have many friends in the airobatic world and the corp. helicopter world. so the sport gyro world is no big lose. I don't need the stress.
 
I will add to this. I was the guy who flew the R22 to the fly-in. I watched the accident happen right in front of me.

I received a call from the FSDO about this whole thing. The gentleman that I spoke with was very nice. He asked a few questions about the helicopter....but to be honest he knew what it was.....an accident. Plain and simple...an accident. They happen every day. Even to good pilots.

What the FAA was concerned with was the lack of safety precautions at the fly-in. They were not happy at all to say the least. He told me he watched the tape and was not happy at all with what he saw. He went on and on about the apparent disregard for safety. He wanted names and wanted to know who was in charge. I told him that I had only heard of the fly-in so I flew a student there. He was asking about "pra" and who was the president and so on.....Did I mention that he sounded very angry about this.... It was only when he found out that I was not associated with the group that held the fly-in that he eased off on me.

This is what shut your fly-in down, not the helicopter pilot who had an accident.

I will give my observations of what I saw.

There was no separation between the flight-line and the public. I saw many many people including several small children walking the flightline un-attended. Normally only licensed pilots or those escorted are allowed on flight lines.

There were people walking all over an active taxiway as well as vehicles and campers parked within 5-10 feet of this active taxiway. These are the vehicles that the helo pilot almost hit.

The general public does not know of the hazards and are not aware of proper ground safety procedures. They also do not belong around aircraft and could possibly cause damage without realizing it.

I was worried and did not let my ship to far out of sight. It would only take a person not paying attention where they are walking to do 10 to 15K worth of damage in a second....or worse!

When I was approaching aiken to land, I tuned in the asos. On it was a notam about gyro activity in the air....that is it.... Nothing about closed taxiways or runways.

The problem was there was a fly-in organized right in the active area of an open airport.

No one has said that if all the campers and cars were not right up on the taxiway, the helo pilot may have had the room to get the ship back under control. Instead he had to try to avoid the people and cars....this certainly did not help his recovery from the gust of wind.. Just another side...

After all....it still was an active airport.....first and foremost....regardless of what was going on.


Looked like a fun event with a great group of people. But......
Poorly planed and executed with little regard to organized safety that should go along with an event on an airport. No offence intended....just my observation.

Justin, where did you park your helicopter? Why did you not park your helicopter alongside your friends helicopter??? Did you park your helicopter with the nose or tail into the wind?

Do you honestly think that it is the fault of where the campers were parked that made your friend wreck his Rotorway? That is a stretch Justin.... He was OUT OF CONTROL the momment his skids left the ground.

Why is it that he DECLINED the offer to have the ultralight planes moved before he took off?

And again, I think you, like Animal, have not been to many fly-ins apparently as it is a rare thing at most fly-ins to see the public roped off from the aircraft parking areas and that is where this all took place. Your friend should have never landed that close to the crowd. Airplanes and gyros can be pushed out of the area and then started and flown away, not helicopters.

I agree, we certainly could have made it safer, we could have just made everyone stay on the other side of the fence.... But we have never had any problems until this year when a helicopter pilot decides to land near the crowds and then takeoff towards the crowd with a gusty strong tail wind..... and then the blame gets passed on to the club. Justin, I would not think that you would pass on this blame....

By the way I spoke with the FAA, probably the same guy you spoke to. We discussed the whole thing. He didn't seem so mad too me, but yeah he was concerned...
 
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You say the fence is the safety line...then what the hell are people being brought in on the people mover down the active taxiway for if they are supposed to be behind the fence.


Trust me I already know I am not welcome in your club.
and trust me hell will freeze over before I will attend any fly in of this chapters.


but I love the way everybody is blameing me, yeah like I am the one that caused the crash.




event.

Ignore John Stevens comments. He means well, but doesn't know what he is talking about. He is not a officer of the club, I am.

Tim, your attitude on the whole thing sucks. You brought up safety concerns, no one acted upon them and you are still making a big deal out of it today a month later. If you were such a stand up guy, when you had concerns and the officers of the club all told you there was nothing we could do, and you were asked to do something yourself, you also declined. So to be clear.... You saw issues you were concerned with, you made a big deal out of making sure Ray, Randy, John, and myself were well aware of your concerns, none of us had the resources or interest in dealing with them, we asked you to deal with them and you too did not have the resources or interest to deal with them, So you blame the club, blame the officers, and make a big stink out of this.... and you wonder why the " club " does not welcome you. Hey your perfectly welcome in the club. You were asked to rejoin and be a safety officer. You are now making more excuses NOT to... that doesn't make sence to me


No one should be blaming you Tim, and none of the club officers are blaming you. Again ignore Screw as he obviously does not have all the facts.
 
Let's also not jump to conclusions.

I am THE PRESIDENT OF THIS CHAPTER..... I had a call from the FAA and spoke with him about the accident and safety issues at the fly-in. He expressed his concerns after he had watched the tape and we discussed it and resolved it with the promiss that next year there would be a roped off area for the helicopters to land in AWAY from the crowds and other vehicles.

The FAA and I had a good conversation and it was pleasant and not all doom and gloom that is being implied here on the forum. I honestly do not think the FAA has anything to do with us loosing the Aiken airport. This is most likely a case of where the Aiken decision makers have decided it is better to avoid the risk of a public attended fly-in for the little benifit we offer by being there.
 
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Guys, why the embarassing soap opera?

We've gone from a discussion of safety and pilot responsibility to gossip about the pilot, and a bunch of people saying "never". I've really looked forward to visiting ROC, but anyone reading this thread would have second thoughts now.

You guys who want to ban helicopters from PRA events, after publicly inviting them, be careful what you wish for. Keep driving people away, and Chapter 13 will be in Chapter 13.
 
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I want everyone to look at these pictures closely.

Notice where all the campers are.


Notice where the planes and gyros and so on are.


The CLUB did not pick this location for things. The city and the airport put us there along that fence and alongside the taxiway with our campers. Typically in the past, the airport and the FAA has allowed us to close the taxiway to traffic and to close the use of runway 1 to outside traffic. This year they did not allow us to close the taxiway nor to limit use of runway 1.

Notice all the ultralight airplanes. They do not normally taxi down the runway to the grass, they normally taxi through the grass to and from the runway. does anyone who looks at these pictures believes these ultralight planes should NOT be parked where they are parked?

Notice the three little specs in one of the pictures, between the two rows of ultralight planes.... these are the ultralight helicopters. This is where the owners of these helicopters decided to " fly " their helicopters. I asked them to move the helicopters to a area about halfway between the far left row of ultralights and the runway to " fly " them.

Notice the big yellow X painted on the ground besides the taxiway. Next to that X is the yellow hold short line on the taxiway. About halfway between that X and hold short line and the runway itself, the gyros were to have blades stopped and engines off. Any movement of gyros past that point was to be engine off and blades tied. And for the most part that is what the gyro pilots did. this is why you see so many gyros parked to the right of the big yellow X.... so they would not have to push their gyros far to get to where it was safe to untie blades and start engines.

If you look at the picture, you can see two tents with blue tarp roofs in the middle of the line up of campers. This is where our registration tent was located and this is where the " public" was dropped off from the people mover. If case you don't know what the people mover is, it is a tractor pulling a open trailer with seats on it, to take people from the parking area to the fly-in area. We were told BY THE AIRPORT and CITY, that we HAD to park the public where we did, which required the use of a people mover, and we were TOLD BY THE AIRPORT AND CITY, to drive that people mover straight up the middle of the taxiway. ( Animal may think that was unsafe, but that is what we were told to do, not our choice )

If you look at the picture overall you can see many people here and there, but clearly no one near the area I described above where we were active with gyroplanes with running engines or spinning blades. All of this hoopla over the public being " loose " and under no control is problems with the public and HELICOPTERS. Again look at the picture and look at where the 3 ultralight helicopters are parked. They are told to move them further away, they did not. If they had moved further away there would not have been THAT issue. ................. there was not a problem with the public near the ultralight airplanes. Those pilots were responsible, and the area around them was cleared as they arrived and taxied in and as they taxied out for departure. Again, like I said, I do not think there was a issue of lack of safety measures here with the way we had this set up.

Look at the picture one more time and if you look to the left of the group of ultralights on the right... You will see the White Rotorway exec sitting on the ground being fueled up by the fuel truck. Why did the pilot decide to park this close?

Again, if you look at the Yellow X and yellow Hold short line on the taxiway, and go halfway between it and runway #1, that is where fly-in participants were to start or stop engines and spinning blades. We did not feel we needed a dedicated helicopter area.... We never had many helicopters show up anyway. I was expecting the rotorway, but assumed he would see the airport and our fly-in area from the air - just as you can via these pictures - and he would park closer to the runway and possibly INTO the wind.

I think the only mistake we made was not having a area roped off for the helicopters since they were going to land where they wanted and it is clear now that even though it is their responsibilty, since the club did not designate a special area for them, we are getting some of the blame for this accident. The other mistake was not being firm enough with the ultralight helicopter pilots about moving their helicopter far away from where they are sitting in these pictures. I asked them, I as the club president clearly asked them to move them back, but they didn't move them very far and they ended up back close to people again.... I should have been a dick and really got on them for not following directions, but I didn't - and people still think I am a asshole... -


I ask people like Tim Oconner, and others who have been to many fly-ins, after seeing these pictures, and knowing what you have seen at other fly-ins, do you still think the club was lazy or lax or did not do what we should or all we should have in the name of safety???? Again, keep in mind that we were forced to be where we were as far as along the taxiway with the campers and so on and so forth.....
 

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Guys, why the embarassing soap opera?

We've gone from a discussion of safety and pilot responsibility to gossip about the pilot, and a bunch of people saying "never". I've really looked forward to visiting ROC, but anyone reading this thread would have second thoughts now.

You guys who want to ban helicopters from PRA events, after publicly inviting them, be careful what you wish for. Keep driving people away, and Chapter 13 will be in Chapter 13.


Again, no officer of Chapter 13 has said anything about Banning helicopters. Matter of fact I have invited every helicopter pilot I have come in contact with in this area. I think this is why or how Justin and the Rotorway pilot knew about our fly-in and why they came.... I invited them.

John Stevens is just a member of the chapter acting on his own with his words and actions. I love john to death and consider him a good friend, but again I have to ask people to ignore him.

Yes it is getting a bit soap opera-ish. Sorry if that discourages you or anyone else from attending future ROC's.
 
Wow!!!!!!! 27 new posts since I checked this thread last night.

I have come to the conclusion. I don't really care what ya all think. Thats toooo much for me to read. Ya all giving me a headache. :argue:
 
I ask people like Tim Oconner, and others who have been to many fly-ins, after seeing these pictures, and knowing what you have seen at other fly-ins, do you still think the club was lazy or lax or did not do what we should or all we should have in the name of safety???? Again, keep in mind that we were forced to be where we were as far as along the taxiway with the campers and so on and so forth.....

Keeping in mind I was not present and have not seen 'the video' the discription you give and the photos look like a pretty normal arrangement to me.

I however, am not a saftey expert nor know the FAA regs on such things.

I can say that I have been to EAA pancake breakfast fly-ins that have had NO Safty prep.

The only question I would have would be how was the parking/run-up zone information communicated to pilots? Did you have pilot meetings or hand outs or signs?

The question I would ask of any saftey officer would be when does a 'fly-in' become an 'airshow'.

Fly-ins seem to have little to no prep, just fly-in, eat, leave and mostly just pilots.

This event had camping, campers, public, was there a charge for admission?

I can't really see from the photos or Rons discription anything overtly dangerous and it sounds like Ron satisfied the FAA that improvments will be made.

Anything could have 'spooked' the airport buracrats.

I am really starting to be thankful for the 'Mentone model' where there are flight bosses, pilot briefings and roped off zones.
 
Mentone also is a field that exists for PRA and is owned by PRA's sister corporation. Despite all the bitching about the politics of THAT, we can see here that it has some advantages.

Being your own master is a good thing in such cases.

It's probably necessary to have safety officers, briefings, wing-walkers, no-engine pit areas, "no-go" lines along the runway and other anal procedures when the public is invited.

Most people (a few straw-boss personalities aside) don't enjoy this stuff and wish it wasn't needed. Years ago, I recall Charlie yelling at me like I'd committed a capital offense because I dared to cross "the ditch" at Wauchula. This sort of thing is annoying, but there's no getting away from it in the case of a public event.
 
Justin, that is what I thought.... I thought I had remembered you parking into the wind and a little further away from all the people and campers and so on. Smart thinking on your part I would say.

perhaps the FAA official you spoke to was not the one I talked to. The one I talked to, I knew before he got a job with the FAA and maybe that was why he was nice to me?

Too bad you didn't notice that all the gyros were operating clear of the crowd. It was just the helicopters and the ultralight planes that flew in as guests. We should have better addressed that, and will in the future whereever ROC 2007 is held.

And yes your most certainly invited to come back!
 
I can say that I have been to EAA pancake breakfast fly-ins that have had NO Safty prep.

THAT IS TYPICAL. FLY-IN AND PARK WHERE YOU WANT, ETC....



The only question I would have would be how was the parking/run-up zone information communicated to pilots? Did you have pilot meetings or hand outs or signs?


ALL THE GYRO PILOTS WERE BRIEFED BY EITHER MYSELF OR RUSTY NANCE ON WHERE TO RUN ENGINES, WHERE NOT TO, AND WHERE TO START OR STOP BLADES.


The question I would ask of any saftey officer would be when does a 'fly-in' become an 'airshow'.

MENTONE HAS NOT BEEN REFERED TO AS A AIRSHOW AS FAR AS I KNOW.... NEITHER HAS BENSEN DAYS....



Fly-ins seem to have little to no prep, just fly-in, eat, leave and mostly just pilots.


NOT ALWAYS



This event had camping, campers, public, was there a charge for admission?


NO CHARGE FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN CAMPING SPACES. NO CHARGE FOR THE PUBLIC TO ATTEND, WE WANT PEOPLE TO COME OUT AND SEE GYROS AND SEE WHAT WE DO

I.


ANSWERS IN BOLD TEXT IN YOUR QUOTE
 
Aerial Photos tell the tale

Aerial Photos tell the tale

Ok guys I took a lot of photos and I have some here you can see where what was landed.

Frankly I dont see the problem. You could put helicopters at the far end of field, people, the public was there to see them. They were ALL parked back further than any fw aircraft. The photos prove it. It also shows just how far the chopper had to go to hit the taxiway. Even in my memory I thought they were parked closer. But they were pretty far back in my view here.

If you want the originals I can send them to whoever wants them. With my eyes I can see the R22 was parked closer to the taxiway than the rotorway, although into the wind, along with the mosquito and mikes machine.

Jonathan
 

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Most people (a few straw-boss personalities aside) don't enjoy this stuff and wish it wasn't needed. Years ago, I recall Charlie yelling at me like I'd committed a capital offense because I dared to cross "the ditch" at Wauchula. This sort of thing is annoying, but there's no getting away from it in the case of a public event.



Now Doug...most straw-bosses weren't really too bad...many years back, when in my mid-teens in fact, I was what they called a straw-boss and when you're a bit smarter or bigger than the others and the boss needs a helper...:rolleyes:

I'm definitely convinced...IMO, most fly-ins need a Charlie type air-boss, if nothing else.


Cheers :)
 
Ron,
As battle tested for many years trying to host the "perfect flyin" I can tell you that no two were anywhere alike. We have had good ones go bad and the bad ones turn good. I believe from my short time there that your club did very good.Trying to control a bunch of pilots is like "herding cats" can,t be done.And when you have the airport authorty,most likely not pilots,telling you how to set up,where to go,how to do everything makes it almost impossiable to get things done right.Harry is right, all flyins need a "air boss charlie" type person. I don't believe that there is not one person who attented Bensen Days did'nt feel the rath of charlie,God we miss him! As I said I believe that your club did good,I have 18 Bensen Days under my belt and believe that I can call how it was. Bud
 
Huh????

Huh????

I will add to this. I was the guy who flew the R22 to the fly-in. I watched the accident happen right in front of me.

What the FAA was concerned with was the lack of safety precautions at the fly-in. They were not happy at all to say the least. He told me he watched the tape and was not happy at all with what he saw. He went on and on about the apparent disregard for safety. He wanted names and wanted to know who was in charge.
Response-RCP-- This is news to me...A FAA official has been to ROC for three years running. He came and gave me handouts and charts to handout to the participants and the public. He was there with the people shuttle, he was there when the public was smoking, he was there when the public was there mingling with the pilots asking about the aircraft and what that was and what this was. He was not the least bit concerned about what he saw, and it was no different this year.
I want to say the officials name was ...I believe he said his name was Something or other Coward from the Columbia, SC office. He gave me his card. I can't find it now.
Why all of a sudden is the FAA angry when t hey haven't said diddly for the last three years?????
In-freaking-credible.

That is what we are about. Up close and personal.


Looked like a fun event with a great group of people. But......
Poorly planed and executed with little regard to organized safety that should go along with an event on an airport. No offence intended....just my observation.

I can't believe that we are expected top baby-sit peoples personal property.
You are the pilot....you are responsible.
I am upset buy all this backseat planning and monday morning quarterbacking.
Why did you not say something while you were there if you were that concerned.[/COLOR]

I've been to two Blue Angel fly-ins in Augusta. The only----The only! area roped off was for the helicopters but it was not that much about safety as was herding paying customers first come first served.
I walked under a B1 Bomber amongst people smoking around all these military & civilian aircraft. I've stood next to a P51 to have my picture taken.
I've seen kids sitting in the seat of an Apache helicopter. Ask Rusty Nance about the air shows at Daniel field.
Guess what??? They had a people shuttle taxing people back and forth among these aircraft.

Why are we perceived differently?

Last year we were granted sole use of that runway.
Some of you have been to Bensen days and some have been to Mentone. Is the public treated differently? Not that I've seen.
As for helicopters parking behind Ernies trailer....I've seen kids back there and public snapping pictures. No ropes, no 500 feet separation, and no pilots near or guarding the helicopters.

A pilot lost control of his machine.....pure and simple.
Regardless of the public or Tim or Ron or a helicopter baby sitter..... that helicopter was going to eat chain link fence and pine trees. He was so far out of control that chopper could have eaten someone on the other side of the fence.
Agree? Or disagree?



Now someone please disagree with me on that.
 
No! No! No!

No! No! No!

Guys, why the embarassing soap opera?

We've gone from a discussion of safety and pilot responsibility to gossip about the pilot, and a bunch of people saying "never". I've really looked forward to visiting ROC, but anyone reading this thread would have second thoughts now.

You guys who want to ban helicopters from PRA events, after publicly inviting them, be careful what you wish for. Keep driving people away, and Chapter 13 will be in Chapter 13.

WE do not want to ban helicopters!!!!!! We have encouraged them to come and we will still!!!!
We encourage all types of aircraft. When it was possible an Apache helicopter has been to every fly-in ROC has hosted except on those occasions Rusty was not able to be there.
We couldn't keep anyone from attending if we wanted too.
WE WANT EVERYONE!
For the life of me I don't understand all this backstabbing instead of solutions and a willingness to help make it better.
But people wanting me to be their personal valet is out of the question.
ROC is no different than any other fly-in I've been to.
The public has never been an issue until Tim (AKA Animal) made it one.

The Pilot lost control and now it's the fault of the Officer's of ROC and or the public.
Give me a break!!!
 
If the airport management wouldn't let you guys close the taxiway and runway like it has in the past maybe it's best if you find a better location.

At Bensen Days there's a rope that runs parallel to the taxiway. A lot of gyros park on the taxiway side of the rope and the public mostly stays on the parking/camping side of the rope. Some people cross the line to look at the parked gyros up close but most stay on the camping side.
 
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