.

Sooo......now that we have a consensus among CFI video watchers agreeing this was unsafe, can we get some feedback from IM on what he plans to do to change this pattern before it becomes part of an accident event chain?

IM, I know your reading this...we care and we are trying to help you.

Some of us have balled up a machine, maybe more then once pushing the envelope, regular landings on a paved runway on relativly calm days should NOT be near the danger zone.
 
Although Inquiring Mind (do you mind sharing your first name?) certainly didn't ask for the kibitzing we've provided, his videos are clear and sharp and, in my opinion, good tools.

I had not watched all 14 of the landings heretofore. After watching all of them I have more unsolicited comments.

Landing 1 and 2 were too fast and too flat and in my opinion did not meet the standard.

Landing 3 was better but still too flat.

Except for giving up and not continuing to hold it off, landings 4 through 14 were actually pretty nice.

I wish I had been in the cockpit with him for landings 4 through 13. I can hear myself saying "Your alignment looks good, rate of descent is good, your initial level off looks pretty good. Now hold it off. Set your landing pitch attitude and hold it. As we slow down, we need more back pressure to maintain the pitch attitude. Airspeed is decaying. Hold it off, hold it off, don't let it land. Hold it off....." At some point we would have had a squeak as the main gear tires touched.

Jim
 
My instructor never taught "balancing on the mains" and we always took off with nearly full throttle, assuming the rrpm was above 180 or so (which it always was after a normal pre-rotation).
During stop and go landings, rrpm did often decay below 180 so, instead of re-engaging the pre-rotator, we'd just then increase throttle gradually till it got back up there (with stick fully back, ofc).
Phil Bennett is a big proponent of full-throttle takeoffs, I believe.

Thanks everyone for advise! I appreciate it and will be working on lowering the speed on touch-downs.
Hey I'm late to this but as I was mentioned I've taken a look at the thread and have this to offer.

Firstly don't work on lowering touch down speed. You'll just stare at instruments when you want to be heads out looking out of the cockpit. I have zero idea what speed I touchdown at. You fly a consistent approach at the appropriate speed for your aircraft, round out and just hold the aircraft off c.2ft off the ground and check the sink with ever increasing backstick. It will land when it can't fly anymore. You just need to hold it off more.

I sympathise however because of the straight keel of the Magni which does mean this flatness on landing is a thing as the process is more delicate than with a cranked keel aircraft. The key to this will be not to over think it, but start with consistent approaches as the video doesn't show they are. Height, speed, position...

On the point re: full throttle. I am a big believer of this because it gives a more consistent take off - because full throttle is an easy / consistent reference. You can't [or are less likely] to fall into a trap of not getting full throttle / power [which the detent on a 914 motor can snag] if you always know what full power feels like. The PoH numbers don't mean much unless you are on full throttle. It gives a better safety margin.

The only reason, ONLY reason, this became a point of debate was because in order to justify the process of an online training provider who felt the need to add all these addional steps so that the patter during wheel balance became more aligned to that for take offs and that just made things that were pretty simple clunky. Hey ho.
 
I am surprised you didn't take the time to mention that a bag of hammers cannot actually be dumb.
In the Army we always used to say "he's as sharp as a bag full of hammers", or "sharp as a bowling ball".
Speaking of hammers, we also used to say, "you might be an M1 tanker if you consider a ball-peen hammer a precision instrument".
😊
 
On the point re: full throttle. I am a big believer of this because it gives a more consistent take off - because full throttle is an easy / consistent reference. You can't [or are less likely] to fall into a trap of not getting full throttle / power [which the detent on a 914 motor can snag] if you always know what full power feels like. The PoH numbers don't mean much unless you are on full throttle. It gives a better safety margin.

The only reason, ONLY reason, this became a point of debate was because in order to justify the process of an online training provider who felt the need to add all these addional steps so that the patter during wheel balance became more aligned to that for take offs and that just made things that were pretty simple clunky. Hey ho.
As I recall Michael Burton (Commercial Pilot Rotorcraft-Gyroplane and Rotorcraft-Gyroplane CFI) used this technique around 2004 at Spanish Fork, Utah and had several videos about it. I don’t know when he started using it.

I begin instructing less than full throttle on takeoff when I had a learner who was opening the throttle too quickly.

I found that advancing the throttle more gently helped him manage balancing on the mains and reduce his tendency to bounce off the tail wheel.

Now when I have a learner who has trouble balancing on the mains I suggest using less than full throttle during the initial takeoff roll.

2,300 engine rpm is the minimum or the takeoff is aborted in The Predator.

This was all well before I had any contact with an online gyroplane training provider.
 
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Firstly don't work on lowering touch down speed. You'll just stare at instruments when you want to be heads out looking out of the cockpit. I have zero idea what speed I touchdown at. You fly a consistent approach at the appropriate speed for your aircraft, round out and just hold the aircraft off c.2ft off the ground and check the sink with ever increasing backstick. It will land when it can't fly anymore. You just need to hold it off more.
Hi Phil,

Except for the first sentence in the excerpt, I believe you are spot on with your recommendations above.

"Don't stare at the instruments and lose situational awareness."

I couldn't agree more!

However, words matter. I believe he should absolutely "work on lowering his touchdown speed."

In the landing flare we get velocity, directional and height clues which can only come from looking outside. As you so rightfully indicate, fixating on the instruments is very bad.

When we humans approach any task, we have a goal that mostly progresses from the general to the specific. "Let's land this thing safely." Landing safely means touching down at the desired point with the longitudinal axis of the aircraft aligned with the direction of travel, the vertical velocity as close to zero as possible, and the groundspeed as low as possible.

So yes, he should work on lowering his touchdown speed as well as doing all that other critical stuff you point out.

Respectfully,

Jim
 
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Yeah of course you are right Jim I suppose the point being don't work on the touchdown speed, the touch down speed will reduce as a consequence of the other stuff...
 
PhilBennett said: "You just need to hold it off more."

I absolutely agree. In landings 4-13 in the video, I believe the poster is doing a pretty good job except for touch down speed. If he takes your advice, articulated above, he will improve the safety, and elegance, of his landings.

Jim
 
I watched it and subconsciously pushed myself back in the seat a bit...scary.
Me too my imagination it was the nosewheel tonching first a couple of times. It also chirped. I have never landed a gyro so fast that the tires chirp like a fixed wing. Need to slow it down and flare more so the main gear touches first and then hold the nose off until it falls over. Then proceed with another takeoff run. Landing in the nosewheel is dangerous and why I quit flying after doing it my whole life. Too fat to pull the stick back.
 
It's Tedium Saturday Nite here, so, I'll play. <pause while I have a pint> Nowhere did I claim that he was landing his M-24 at or above 57 kts. What I wrote was:


I employed something called a "similie." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/simile#note-1

View attachment 1155529

Are you often so tedious, or do you reserve such just for particular people? Notwithstanding that, the responses here agree that he lands too fast and too flat (and some observed NW firsts, as did I). That's all I admonished him about, so why did you insist on tone-deafness and make such an unhelpful and odd counterpoint? (That is a rhetorical question, not needing an answer.) I sincerely "don't get you."
Please understand this I consider Vance a very dear friend I have know for years. He had a TBI and we tease him because subtle humor and sarcasm escape him sometimes. While I’m in his presence many times something will be said that fits these parameters and all of us will laugh and Vance is just looking around puzzled. One of us will say Vance that was a joke or sarcasm and he will push his head back and make the funniest fake laugh. Like ha ha ha. You would have to witness it in person. He is an amazing man, a great instructor who is by the book(Mr. Mayfield I wonder which one of his mentors he got that from), and a even better friend. Just wanted to convey that. It is my hope that if you haven’t had the pleasure that you are able to meet him and have a chance to talk to him. His story and the hurdles he has over come in life are just Amazing. His pure love of flying gyros will make you appreciate the man the myth our Vance. He deserves a huge amount of respect. He took on the FAA and won. I believe he is the only gyroplane pilot who has over come his injuries (what the rest of the world would consider disabilities) and earned a pilots certificate much less a CFI. He and my friend Russ King both have TBI and both are smarter than most people I know who haven’t had an injury to their brain. If you ever meet him I promise you will love him and respect him. He is one of the most amazing people I have ever met and his life story deserves to be in a book. He acts like he doesn’t get humor but, he tells a joke about his brain scan after his injury that makes you think and appreciate what he has achieved. He says that his MRI shows his brain activity as if you were looking at North Korea at night from a space. Some lights on but nothing like South Korea. I probably messed it up but it is funny the way he tells it. Hope I didn’t mess it up too bad Vance. Miss you sir. I have the honor of being friends with he and Russ King. To sit and listen to what they both have overcome puts me in awe every time I’m around them. I would compare meeting Vance to meeting Bob Hoover or Chuck Yeager. To be able to call him my friend has made my life better. Russ is family.
 
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What are you interpreting on this. None of it says to land flat or even nose first. In a check ride if someone did that and I saw he doesn’t even know it’s wrong. I am failing him. Cut and dry. Appropriate flare and control means land fairly slow and keep nose wheel up and be lined up with centerline if runway not turn into wind. It is a demonstration of crosswind technique not avoidance if it. Landing slow is aircraft specific. In most Gyroplanes you should not be touching down at more than 10 knots and that’s being generous. Front wheel should stay up as one slows down even more ideally to a stop. Amazingly when this is done the ground roll controls itself to be very short.
Landing like an airplane is not warranted and I hate to use that because the same principles apply in an airplane except you should be touching down the main just at Vs0 as it reduces further in ground effect and keep front wheel up as long as you can. So it’s really same concept in all categories of aircraft. We need to be competent in doing so or take remedial training. I would fail in a check ride if I saw the landings I saw in this thread. 100%. No doubt in my mind. He isn’t ready.

Am I missing something.
My dad always taught his students very similar to what you are saying here. The one thing he insisted on student being able to do in addition was on a touch and go once you land keep the nose wheel up with a little power and take off from there. It’s an advanced technique that took some finesse to master. It’s a great way to ensure your not hogging the runway by doing a full stop then a full takeoff on the runway. It’s very fun too.
 
Although Inquiring Mind (do you mind sharing your first name?) certainly didn't ask for the kibitzing we've provided, his videos are clear and sharp and, in my opinion, good tools.

I had not watched all 14 of the landings heretofore. After watching all of them I have more unsolicited comments.

Landing 1 and 2 were too fast and too flat and in my opinion did not meet the standard.

Landing 3 was better but still too flat.

Except for giving up and not continuing to hold it off, landings 4 through 14 were actually pretty nice.

I wish I had been in the cockpit with him for landings 4 through 13. I can hear myself saying "Your alignment looks good, rate of descent is good, your initial level off looks pretty good. Now hold it off. Set your landing pitch attitude and hold it. As we slow down, we need more back pressure to maintain the pitch attitude. Airspeed is decaying. Hold it off, hold it off, don't let it land. Hold it off....." At some point we would have had a squeak as the main gear tires touched.

Jim
I hear my dad saying pull the nose up a little now hold it there hold it, hold it, hold it. Like magic the gyro almost landed itself. Dad always said any dummy can have a controlled crash but it takes a skilled pilot to make a beautiful landing. In my opinion a gyro should never land faster than you can walk. A touch and go may be a little faster just to keep the nose wheel off the ground to limit the time your occupying the active runway. Otherwise flare, round it off in ground affect, hold the nose up until speed bleeds off and the main gear touches very slowly if not at zero ground speed, keep holding the nose up until the nose just drops over on to the gear. That’s the way dad and Steve Graves taught me. Old School gyro technics seem to be going away with this new generation. To the pilot in the video pleas don’t take this as criticism please take it as a critique from some of the smartest most experienced gyro pilots in the world. Mr. Mayfield was an instructor in helicopters in the military he also taught many many people to fly gyros and has thousands of hours in them. I’m 51 years old and I’ve been flying in and around Gyro‘s since I was born. I took my first ride in a Gyro when I was four sitting in my fathers lap. I soloed when I was 25 because my father felt despite my skill to fly them at a very young age I did not have the judgment to not go out and kill myself in one. I have no idea how many hours I have flying a gyro plane but I think I’m pretty good at it since I’ve had three engine outs over many years of flying and landed without bending or breaking anything. I currently hold the honor of being the Airboss for Bensen Days in Florida for the last two years. Since I grew up at the airport and at flyins for 46 years I have seen just about every mistake you can make in a gyro. I have seen people, despite many of us trying to help them end up either destroying their machine or killing themselves because they didn’t listen to people who had greater knowledge than themselves. It’s an ego thing. It takes a humble man to admit that someone else whom he doesn’t know may have knowledge that he does not. It also takes a smart man to set aside his ego and listen to those who have been around and made these mistakes without injuring or killing themselves. To heed this advice and use it would make you special. Most I have met would not take the advice and feel insulted. Please don’t take it that way. In my 46 years around Gyro‘s I have known and been able to listen to some of the greats including Dr. Bensen, Ken Brock, and Chuck Beaty. Please listen to this advice because it’s coming from people who just want you to succeed and be safe. It’s not coming from jealousy or the need to criticize you for no reason. We have all seen countless people come and go who didn’t listen and didn’t succeed. It hurts us in our hearts everytime someone wrecks or worse gets hurt or killed in the magic carpet we have dedicated a good portion of our lives trying to show the world how fun, amazing, and safe they can be.
 
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don’t take this as criticism please take it as a critique from some of the smartest most experienced gyro pilots in the world.
Not sure flying gyros correlates to being smart :) and possibly more on the unique spectrum. but they are fun to fly. I agree sharing experience is great to help keep gyro pilots safer…
 
Please understand this I consider Vance a very dear friend I have know for years. He had a TBI and we tease him because subtle humor and sarcasm escape him sometimes.............
Thank you, Mike, but our experiences with him differ. At least twice I've plainly caught him in boldly wrong-headed statements, which not only did he not correct after thorough countering evidence was posted but in one occasion accused me of "fantasy" and "making it up." I don't care about his lack of a sense of humour, but I won't abide by his projections. As Jesus said in Matthew 7:3: "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "

I hope you fared well in Florida after Hurricane Ian. Good day.
 
Thank you, Mike, but our experiences with him differ. At least twice I've plainly caught him in boldly wrong-headed statements, which not only did he not correct after thorough countering evidence was posted but in one occasion accused me of "fantasy" and "making it up." I don't care about his lack of a sense of humour, but I won't abide by his projections. As Jesus said in Matthew 7:3: "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "

I hope you fared well in Florida after Hurricane Ian. Good day.
Well honestly I would never condemn a man for anything said here or any message board on the internet. I would have to meet him and get to know him in person before dismissing anything he has to say. I believe all voices have value. The voices that you don’t agree with usually have the most value. Where would this world be if we were all a bunch of yes men. I’ve met many a man whom didn’t deserve much respect and surely no admiration. Vance deserves both. I don’t believe the man has ever been nothing but kind and respectful. I have seen some disagreements on here between he and others. It’s the nature of this type of place to have these from time to time. I encourage you if you have a chance to meet him you should. I promise you will think about how blessed you are and realize what a truly amazing and strong man my friend Vance is.
 
I wish more people took that attitude, Mike. Unfortunately a lot of folks here do not, to include some of the moderators.
 
Well honestly I would never condemn a man for anything said here or any message board on the internet. I would have to meet him and get to know him in person before dismissing anything he has to say. I believe all voices have value. The voices that you don’t agree with usually have the most value. Where would this world be if we were all a bunch of yes men. I’ve met many a man whom didn’t deserve much respect and surely no admiration. Vance deserves both. I don’t believe the man has ever been nothing but kind and respectful. I have seen some disagreements on here between he and others. It’s the nature of this type of place to have these from time to time. I encourage you if you have a chance to meet him you should. I promise you will think about how blessed you are and realize what a truly amazing and strong man my friend Vance is.
I don't believe that Vance has been respectful of me, and he was in one thread actually insulting. I tried to "Ignore" his profile, but could not because he is a Moderator. So, I generally skip over his posts during the decreasing time I spend on the forum.

Thanks, Mike, and good day to you, Sir.
 
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It appears IM deleted all his posts, Too bad since I feel they contributed a lot to the forum and safety for the gyro community.
 
Not sure flying gyros correlates to being smart :) and possibly more on the unique spectrum. but they are fun to fly. I agree sharing experience is great to help keep gyro pilots safer…
Well being a smart gyro pilot may not equate to you being smart anywhere else in your life.
 
We should not be too critical of pilots who post videos and share their experiences and potentially expose their mistakes re gyros on this forum. We are all only one mistake away from disaster. Harsh comments to posts might inhibit the future sharing of important information and we all lose a potential learning opportunity. I hope IM reposts his videos of his Magni 24 landings, etc. Such videos are a good starting point for sharing constructive advice, especially for new gyro pilots. Gyro videos do take a bit of work to publish. So thanks to all who share videos of their gyro experiences on this forum. :) John H
 
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