Full autos to the ground coming soon

StanFoster

Active Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
17,139
Location
Paxton, Il
Aircraft
Helicycle N360SF
Total Flight Time
1250
I had a very enjoyable chat on the phone with my friend Vance this morning....and usually a conversation with a man of his depth causes an influence on me. Today was no exception.

He was impressing on me the real need to do full autos to the ground. I told him that I practice autos a lot, but with power recovery after the skids are level. What he was telling me is what I have been wanting to start actually doing....and that is just completely deliver the baby and do a full auto...instead of abort it with a power recovery.

So, when the time is right....and over a grass runway, I will do some autos and let them continue on down to the ground. I feel some of the advice against doing these in the Helicycles is because of their landing gear that can fold up if doing a run on landing. Mine have been strengthened with criss cross cables....and have had one real test with my first forced landing at the best option of doing a 40 mph run on landing.

I feel I need to move my training up to another level. I already am doing autos with stopping all forward motion....leveling the skids, and then doing a power recovery which can be interesting in itself catching the torque with the left pedal as it comes online.

I felt in the beginning I didnt have enough experience, now I have a better feel for this ship, and would like to start doing some full autos to the ground.......

I will be doing these over a grass runway, and if it doesnt look right, I will do a power recovery, but then really scold myself why it wasnt right...and keep at it till it is right. You only get one chance at a real engine out. No aborting the baby then!

Stan
 
Stan I am still very new to flying helicopters with 40 hours total and only 15 hours at altitude. I do understand the need to do practice autos with power recovery but I have read about several ships being damaged because the owner felt that it was necessary to do a full auto to the ground just for practice. I think that you have already proven you can do a full auto to the ground with no damage to you or the ship during an actual emergency and with far less hours flying in the ship than you have now. Remember that the primary reason for autos is to get you to the ground without damage, the ship condition is secondary.

That is just my opinion and it may change after I start actually flying my helicopter higher than 10 feet.
 
I can't think of a better thing than doing full downs. I had all my commercial students do them even jeopardizing my job doing so. I felt if you had a license to carry passengers for hire you should be able to save their lives. It is too bad that schools are so anal about it because the re precautions of the insurance companies, therefore it is ok to create incompetent pilots due to inadequate training when it comes to autos. Ok we had bent a few cross beams and deflated the oleos but every single one of them got to the level where they were comfortable going all the way. Actually doing the power recovery is harder than making it all the way in my humble opinion. Than again I do have very limited experience in those things :) I am looking forward seeing the autos Stan :)
 
Better to do autos to a runway or parking lot,The field of grass areas look better but are more hazardous the skids can hang up on anything and then it's a sudden stop or the right or left skid gets hung up and over you go. And gopher holes & rocks can suprize you at any time. Damaged a UH 1 with unknown gopher hole, It was ugly.
 
Hi Stan,

My two cents..

I'd be performing a bit of a risk/benefit analysis on this line of thinking.

If you can do a sweet power recovery, you will do a sweet full down when you have to.

This machine is far too sweet to ball it up for a questionable return.

The critical phase of any uncommanded engine out of your helicycle will be the autorotation entry, not the touchdown. I'm sure that you will put the machine down without a scratch if you have to, but only if you are on the ball and you are in a safe area (H/V and terrain) if and when it goes quiet.

If you want to practice a few fulldowns, go hire a heli at a school and get a really experienced instructor, preferably someone teaching cfi's and have a stress free learning experience

Cheers
Paddy
 
I am the friend that Mama warned you about.

I am the friend that Mama warned you about.

I am the one that started this trouble so I feel I should express my thoughts.

I watch them practicing Autorotation with a power recovery at SBP. The instructor pulls the power at the same place in the pattern at the same altitude each time. In my opinion it does not simulate an engine out and an actual autorotation to the ground.

They have at least 3 Robinson 22s a bell 47 and a couple of Jet Rangers.

We have at least one dead instructor and one dead student out of SLO because they did not manage an engine out well.

When I read the NTSB reports it seems to me that there are a lot of badly handled autorotations that cause substantial damage. I realize that a lot of this comes from a lack of respect for the height/velocity curve.

It is my understanding that the military practices autorotation to the ground and won’t go further until the pilot has managed them well. Please correct me if this has changed, my information is Vietnam era and probably out dated.

I practiced Autorotation to the ground and they seemed benign in a Robinson 44, a Hiller with wood blades and a Bell 47 with wood blades.

My first autorotation to the ground was in a Robinson 22 and it ended up being a run on landing that gave me the feeling the blades were going to hit something.

I found the experience very different than an autorotation with a power recovery.

I found that the rate that I pulled collective took practice to get right. It seemed to me that there was a lot going on between leveling the ship and being stopped that is missed with a power recovery.

I flew with Scott Hedger in his Long Ranger and he did an autorotation from several miles out and kept it inches above the concrete of a dam as he added power. It was close enough to an autorotation to the ground for me.

I hope that Stan walks the grass at his intended touchdown and only does autorotations on calm days.

Thank you, Vance
 
stan, lots of good food for thought. have you been doing hovering autos? are you proficient in them? if so then you are probably ready to go for it. good luck. dont bring the video yet.
 
I watch them practicing Autorotation with a power recovery at SBP. The instructor pulls the power at the same place in the pattern at the same altitude each time. In my opinion it does not simulate an engine out and an actual autorotation to the ground.
Yes, that's a bad way to prepare for the surprise of a real failure. But it doesn't have much to do with the choice of power recovery or full down in a practice landing. The factors that kill people operate much earlier than the last 5 feet of descent. Manage the entry, your rpm, your glide, your choice of route/terrain and landing sites within range, while knowing the wind direction and approximate speed, and you'll get through it o.k. I'm with Paddy on this aspect:

The critical phase of any uncommanded engine out of your helicycle will be the autorotation entry, not the touchdown. I'm sure that you will put the machine down without a scratch if you have to, but only if you are on the ball and you are in a safe area (H/V and terrain) if and when it goes quiet.

It is my understanding that the military practices autorotation to the ground and won’t go further until the pilot has managed them well. Please correct me if this has changed, my information is Vietnam era and probably out dated.

I practiced Autorotation to the ground and they seemed benign in a Robinson 44, a Hiller with wood blades and a Bell 47 with wood blades.
Your choice of aircraft makes a huge difference in the risk of damage. In my high inertia wheeled Sikorsky S-52 I could even roll it on at 25 knots with no trouble, but there are other helicopters where full-down practice is a bit like practicing bleeding (taking a big risk to prepare for the chance of a big risk).

My first autorotation to the ground was in a Robinson 22 and it ended up being a run on landing that gave me the feeling the blades were going to hit something.

* * *

I hope that Stan walks the grass at his intended touchdown and only does autorotations on calm days.
Why only calm days? Wind can be your best friend in a full down auto. It can make a running landing with risk of rollover into a zero ground speed arrival and substantially cut down the dangers.
 
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Why only calm days? Wind can be your best friend in a full down auto. It can make a running landing with risk of rollover into a a zero ground speed arrival and substantially cut down the dangers.
Mark is absolutely correct!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do it in freaking 30 knots wind damn it! It will make it easier. My CFI check ride was in 28kts wind and I did a full down in front of the whole school outside the hangar watching me (no pressure) that the touchdown was as light as a butterfly lands. Use the wind. It is your friend. You'll be able to do it in calm too but why not have a little help while practicing? Just make sure you are into the damn thing :) Practice quick stops finished up with hover autos. Same movement as the finishing phase of the full downs. Than go for it and master it!!! Out of all maneuvers this will save your bacon when the $hit hits the fan. Go get it Tiger :)
 
Just to chime in here...definitely the thing that causes people to die in engine failures in helicopters happens WAY above the 5-8 feet of height that a power recovery would happen at. Don't break your gorgeous helicopter. :)

My recommendation is, get with a sympathetic CFI in a Bell 47 or perhaps a Schweizer 300 that autos in a very forgiving manner (not an R22) and let him follow along. I used to ride very often with a friend in his 47 and he would let me do full-touchdown autos but would shadow me just for safety.

-John
 
Gabor- You also aren't hearing me correctly. Of course its EASIER doing autos into the wind. I am saying if I only practice in strong winds, then when a real one happens on a calm day, I only have had auto experience getting it slowed down to whatever the wind is. If I say only had been practicing in 20 mph winds, that's the same as only getting it slowed down to 20 mph on a calm day. Is my english that bad?? Stan
LOL no. Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. YURINGLISISGOOD SENIOR STAN :whip:
Stan after you get the full downs mastered I need you to practice tail rotor failure with engine out..... :) The chances are....well rather slight but you won't have to pedal!!!!! :laser:
 
I love this man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! John you are speaking my language

A CFI I was flying with demo'd a full-down in an R22 when I was a fairly new student back in '98 or so...I thought we broke the helicopter we hit so hard! To this day I'm not sure if he meant to do that. :)
 
A CFI I was flying with demo'd a full-down in an R22 when I was a fairly new student back in '98 or so...I thought we broke the helicopter we hit so hard! To this day I'm not sure if he meant to do that. :)
John I am a CFI myself with a couple of hours under my belt and autos are just part of the training. In my book the most important one! Good ole 269 with independent floating landing gear and the oleos are the perfect machines for this type of abuse. Although I have seen cracked droop stops due to harder hit than desirable. Still if you come down vertical from even 30-40 feet with it, you'll walk away. Not so sure with the R22. They used to have to change ship on the check ride for CFI to do the full downs in the Schweizers. Atone point in 2006 the FAA suspended full downs all together! Too many accidents I guess. I love my 269. :) Awesome machine.
 
I always thought the standard way of teaching auto-rotations around here was ridiculous! The instructor pulls power when you are set up on final on a perfect runway, doing the right speed at the right altitude. He prepares you by counting down ... 3, 2, 1. The student dutifully takes it down to the runway (anywhere on the mile-long pavement will do) ... Then he recovers with power at the end.

I insisted that I be taught another way: Surprise me! Providing we are in a safe environment (away from people and objects) ... Pull power without teling me. Then tell me where I must put it down (simulating a a real-life scenario where there may be buildings or other obstacles). Then take her to the ground!

It is a good feeling to know you can "stretch" or "shorten" the glide when needed using airspeed, s-turns, spirals, slips and other techniques to make your spot.
 
I watch them practicing Autorotation with a power recovery at SBP. The instructor pulls the power at the same place in the pattern at the same altitude each time. In my opinion it does not simulate an engine out and an actual autorotation to the ground.

Your spoton Vance.
Once the instructer has learned you to take off, fly level and land without bendn anythn, your next highest learn'n priority should be for sudden silence.
And not a setup.
Wate till the student is comfortable, cruisen S/L, then turn it off n tell him "wot now"?
Its this sudden realisation that its not all tea n scons up there, wen the noise stops that gets their attention.
Now that he understands the reality of silence, test him occasionaly to see how he reacts.
Coz if theres one thing you can count on its that silence will happen wen your least expectn it, over country you shouldnt even be flyn over, in conditions you wish you didnt take off in, while your at an attitude that makes it all seem like a bad dream.
BUT, wen you step off n look at your machine parked uprite ina spot you would hide it, your greatful for all the 'real life' practice you did. ;)
 
Stan you are a great example of how real pilots are made.Just because you had earned your license the learning has not stopped. Good for you. You are a natural and you keep pushing for excellence. I do admire that a lot. I agree also with Tom the count down 3.2.1 sucks and should never been used. But the schools and the examiners like it because it is safer for THEM. They don't care about you as a student learning. They care about you PASSING. And that is the sad truth. Stan make videos and let others learn from you. I have all the confidence in you. You have done it more times than some does in a life time! :)
 
Yep, that nonsense of slowly rolling the throttle off & announcing an engine failure is ridiculous.

I had the throttle chopped all over the place & also did autos to the ground in an R22 during my initial PPL(H) training - the latter actually being against school policy except for CFI training but I asked & my CFI also felt it was something you needed to learn.
 
I wish everyone could feel the rotor energy the Helicycle has with its 12 ounce tip weights autoing at 620 rpm before the flare, then even faster than that as the rotor picks uo more rpm during the flare, before all that stored energy to tap into. Almost all R22 autos are runon landings. I was taught to just expect ending with a runon landing. The helicycle however is full capable of stopping completely. There is no comparison. Part of me has been cautiious getting to this point with practicing my autos with power recovery, and part of me wants to advance my training. I am just going to follow my gut and proceed cautiously with 0 stops, then decide when not to do a power recovery. Gabor, I do like your advice of doing quickstops followed by a hover auto. Now that makes sense and I will proceed to that stage before doing a full down auto. If I seem a little edgy, it probably comes from my gyro days when I had been scolded and scoffed at by my self training, and my cutting the throttle on a "whim", just to see how I would handle all kinds of different scenariios, then power out at the last few seconds. Some that scoffed never have had a real forced landing. The best thing that ever happened to me was my first real engine out in my Mac powered Bensen. I taught myself to fly and already had killed my engine several times actually doing real engine out landings. Then, just 5 hours after my first solo. I was out flying at 400 ft, the mac went silent! That was the loudest silence I had ever heard. My self training had me saying to myself... Into the wind and 50 mph. I landed in a soybean field and had get some help to carry it out to a blacktop, where I replaced the broken float in my carb and flew it home. Ever since then I haven't trusted engines at all. Little did I know I would be tested 19 more times to date. No wonder I have some strong opinions about this... Ha. Stan
 
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The Reasons

The Reasons

The reason I suggested to Stan that he begin he to the ground autorotation practice on a calm day is because of my personal experience with practicing autorotations and my own learning style.

The last time I landed at King City at 2,000 feet I had a 14kt tail wind so I set up for a 45 degree entry to the downwind. At 800 feet the downwind became an upwind of about ten kts. I ran into the same thing at El Mirage. I have had this happen to a lesser degree many times. I feel this would make an auto to the ground more difficult and complicate the learning process.

I feel it is important to practice the more challenging autorotation to the ground in still air because the goal is to become a better pilot, not to impress anyone with how an autorotation to the ground appears.

I have found that for me it takes consistency to make incremental improvements. For me a gusting, unpredictable wind takes the consistency out of it and makes the learning process more difficult for me. I am left with the question; Was that me or the environment? In my opinion not having the answer to that question would make the process of incremental adjustment less productive.

The reason I suggested he practice on smooth grass is because in my limited helicopter experience when I inadvertently made an auto to the ground with forward speed I found he helicopters behavior coming to a stop disquieting even though it was on grass.

I find the noise of a run on landing on a hard service even more disquieting. It also seems to be harder on the skids.


I have read all the posts from both the more and less experienced and I still feel that practicing in calm conditions on grass that has been closely inspected is a good way to start the learning process.

I do not agree with the idea that the final phase of the landing is not that important in an autorotation.

I feel that an unexpected autorotation to the ground is a complex process and every phase of it is important.

In my limited experience I found the touch down one of the more challenging parts.

I am cognizant of the fact that I am suggesting that Stan risk damage to his Helicycle to become a better pilot. I feel that Stan wants to become the best pilot he can be.

The only thing you can pick on Stan about is listening to his non helicopter rated friend.

I am proud to be his friend.

Thank you, Vance
 
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