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  • #31
    For the longest time, I thought that Al Gore had invented global warming but on reading up, it seems that it was invented or at least popularized by Margaret Thatcher, the UK’s iron lady PM.
    Ms Thatcher, in her fight with the Labour Party and its more aggressive component, the coal miner’s union, alleged that CO2 emissions were polluting the atmosphere and causing global warming. That was her weapon for closing money losing coal mines and going to nuclear power for electrical generation.
    Coal fired power plants, in the days before exhaust gas cleaning, did emit polluting and dangerous fumes in the form of sulfur and nitrogen compounds but the CO2 emissions are fairly benign.
    Ms Thatcher knew better, having been a research chemist before taking up politics.
    CO2 is a greenhouse gas in the sense that’s it is often fed into greenhouses to enhance plant growth.
    The real culprit in thermal blanketing in plain old water vapor, H2O. This somewhat technical link explains why:

    https://co2islife.wordpress.com/2017...has-no-dipole/

    Comment


    • #32
      The effect of CO2 on the climate was discovered about a hundred and fifty years ago, amongst others by Fourier (yes, the one with the series..;-) the first calculation of the effect was made by Svante Arrhenius in the 19th century, he came up with a figure of about 4°C if the CO2 level is doubled. The prediction from 1912 is probably based on his work. All this is summed up in the video below.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...;v=H4YSwajvFAY

      There is one consolation: those who deny climate change will pay for it just as dearly as those who do something about it (seems a bit unfair, did New Orleans, Houston or Puerto Rico have an unusually high number of climate change deniers?) Anyway the US already seems to struggle to give proper disaster relief, in Puerto Rico thousands are still without electricity, more than a month after the hurricane and people directly feel the cost of Maria:
      https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pu...etbook-n815161


      PS: If Maggie Thatcher helped make people aware of the climate problem that's one positive thing in here tenure, in my opinion though it doesn't make up for her destruction of England's industrial basis: The car, motorcycle and especially the once glorious aircraft industry, all gone!
      Last edited by kolibri282; 10-31-2017, 03:20 AM.
      Cheers,

      Juergen

      ..Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte..
      ....non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter,...
      ...mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher...
      - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry -

      Comment


      • #33
        Jeurgen, the theory of the Earth’s heat balance, as claimed in the article posted above, is that solar radiation, primarily in the visible IR wavelength, heats the Earth and that the Earth re-radiates that energy at a much longer wavelength.

        In order for a gas to behave as a thermal blanket and reduce the escape of heat, its molecules must resonate at the wavelength of the escaping IR radiation.

        That eliminates CO2 as a thermal blanket.

        If that theory is correct, then man made global warming along with Al Gore and all his cuddly polar bears is a hoax.

        The early proponents of CO2 as a warming gas wouldn’t have known that heat and light were a form of electromagnetic radiation; Maxwell didn’t publish his theory until 1865 and Herta didn’t verify it until 1887 while the first crude attempts at transmission of radio waves were made around the turn of the century.

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        • #34
          Chuck, Chuck, Chuck.............. please do not confuse the argument with scientific fact......

          Comment


          • #35
            The power of science is, as you know Chuck, the ability of a theory to allow correct predictions of the future behaviour of a system. Arrhenius' estimate, which seems to have been made around the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, is correct at least regarding order of magnitude, which is jolly good considering what was known at the time. Arrhenius didn't have to know about micro waves to calculate the effect of CO2 in capturing infrared light and yes, our hat is off to him, for his incredible ability to use the knowledge of his time for such an accurate estimate.

            As to the influence of water vapor it is indeed a powerful greenhouse gas but it acts as an amplifier since

            The greenhouse effect that has maintained the Earth’s temperature at a level warm enough for human civilization to develop over the past several millennia
            is controlled by non-condensable gases, mainly carbon dioxide, CO2
            The whole mechanism is very nicely explained here:
            https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/c...t-the-co2.html
            Last edited by kolibri282; 10-31-2017, 10:08 PM.
            Cheers,

            Juergen

            ..Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte..
            ....non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter,...
            ...mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher...
            - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry -

            Comment


            • #36
              The current level of CO2 in the atmosphere is ~400 ppm, Juergen. During the age of dinosaurs, it is claimed to have been ~8000 ppm and animals and plants flourished. The Earth didn’t turn into a ball of fire.

              I have no idea how atmospheric content was determined so far in the remote past.

              Comment


              • #37
                The figure given in the article below, which explains the way the team reached its conclusion, is about 2000ppm

                https://www.livescience.com/44330-ju...n-dioxide.html

                From this article:
                "We are now producing more CO2 than all volcanoes on Earth," van der Meer added. "We will affect climate in ways that are unprecedented and unnatural. The question is how much climate will change. We can now answer this for the past and apply [it] to the future by extrapolation."
                Last edited by kolibri282; 10-31-2017, 10:13 PM.
                Cheers,

                Juergen

                ..Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte..
                ....non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter,...
                ...mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher...
                - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry -

                Comment


                • #38
                  Those who are concerned about adding CO2 to the atmosphere should ..................... stop exhaling.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Fortunately we don't have to....;-)
                    https://www.skepticalscience.com/bre...on-dioxide.htm
                    Cheers,

                    Juergen

                    ..Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte..
                    ....non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter,...
                    ...mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher...
                    - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry -

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      In his post #4 Jean-Claude had presented a graph that shows the curve of global warming over the last century and where we see some heretofore inexplicable behaviour. Part of the puzzle seems to have been solved by the findings below: the slow down in global warming that seemed to occur at the end of the last century are simply due to the use of incomplete data. Since data further back in the last century are quite likely even more incomplete that explanation for the curves presented might well be the same.

                      https://phys.org/news/2017-11-added-...bal-didnt.html
                      Cheers,

                      Juergen

                      ..Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte..
                      ....non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter,...
                      ...mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher...
                      - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry -

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Juergen, my post #4 shows mostly 40 years of non-warming despite the industrial explosion (from 1940 to 1980) The incomplete datas can not be invoked during this period.
                        Records of sea level to Brest in France gives the same information:

                        Click image for larger version

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                        . http://refmar.shom.fr/image/image_ga...=1504525089431

                        IPCC want abolutely explain the climate warming by CO2, strangely assuming a constant Sun, which we know yet variable by its unpredictable eruptions.
                        Last edited by Jean Claude; 12-03-2017, 09:02 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          How do you know, Jean-Claude, that the data are not incomplete, did you collect them..?....;-)

                          PS: I just read, that in Puerto Rico people are still without electricity, three month after the Hurricane. Private companies Tesla and Sonnen, from Germany, are trying to alleviate the situation by donations, where's the government?.
                          https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...2/__trashed-2/
                          Last edited by kolibri282; 12-04-2017, 11:57 AM.
                          Cheers,

                          Juergen

                          ..Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte..
                          ....non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter,...
                          ...mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher...
                          - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry -

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            What other data do you need to see that the rise of the North Atlantic is paused during these 40 years of great industrial development?
                            How much CO2 should be invoked for the abrupt 100 mm step between 1790 and 1810?
                            http://refmar.shom.fr/image/image_ga...=1504525089431
                            Last edited by Jean Claude; 12-04-2017, 02:20 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              What other data do you need to see that the rise of the North Atlantic is paused during these 40 years of great industrial development?
                              The ones that are missing according to post #40, Jean-Claude.
                              Cheers,

                              Juergen

                              ..Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte..
                              ....non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter,...
                              ...mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher...
                              - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry -

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Pope Frances and California’s Gov. Moonbeam at a Vatican press conference declared the California brush fires and the heavy snowfall in Northern Europe are Trump’s fault for his skepticism about man made global warming.
                                I could use a bit of global warming right now- It was 37ºF (3ºC) at 8AM this morning in this part of Florida and I’m still huddled up next to my midget electric heater trying to stay warm.

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