Vance;n1142445 said:
I feel I will get the most value from your experience if I understand exactly what you are saying Phil. Please forgive me if I seem pedantic.
You have more experience than me Vance and I'm not trying to be superior, its just a view. its just good to swap ideas etc.
When learning to fly a helicopter I was taught to come to a hover at three to five feet AGL and then slowly descend to the ground.
In an autorotation to the ground I typically had some speed to slide off on touch down.
I had not heard of the zero/zero touch down technique you have described.
Yeah part of helicopter licence over in the UK. This is quite a good reference I found from a random heli trainer in the UK - look under Ex26 page 39 in the link
http://www.aeromega.com/wp-content/uploads/CHL-Aeromega-EASA-PPL-H-Training-Manual-Revsion-EASA-4-PDF.pdf
I would not expect to see aggressive maneuvering in your vertical descent video Phil because you are heading into a twenty knot wind and you arrest your descent with power.
I have found when making an engine at idle landing with a vertical descent in low wind conditions that I have a pretty aggressive nose down to pick up airspeed after the vertical descent to reach my approach speed.
Look again.
https://youtu.be/w6NpQr5BKMc?t=120
The recovery is to the glide?? Yes I do take your point that the upper wind was around 35mph that day but once we recovered airspeed to 60mph (which we did without power) we obviously climbed away as our ex. was vertical descents. But yes agree in low wind the delta to 60mph would be greater although I'd rather that than get my low time student weaving around without all that much of a plan. S-turns look more Gucci too I suppose.
How does a slow touch down speed equate to a slow speed in the pattern and getting under feet Phil?
I have found I spend less time on the runway with a slow touch down speed and my approach speed is no different. It seems simple to me to teach and the tower doesn’t have any trouble sequencing me with fixed wing aircraft doing pattern work.
I guess it doesn't need to - sorry it was my turn to get the wrong end of the stick as you'd remarked when I quoted an approach speed. In the UK there is a range of techniques and to be fair whatever works and you are used to - the differences stem from the airfield operating out of. Some can fly tight circuits at 500ft and 60mph as they are out of a farm strip or similar. I operate at a bigger airfield and often share the circuit with twins, light jet, warbird and Cirrus types, sadly with a 737 noise abatement type circuit and fly at 60mph and if I don't trip people up then I get 3 circuits in during the hour!!
From what you have written it appears to me you recommend a faster touch down speed than I teach and calling what I teach a "compromised technique" reads to me like you feel there is a problem with it. I am trying to understand what you feel about a round out and slow touch down speed as a compromised technique and not SIMPLE.
Honestly I'm genuinely not mis-directing you but I don't look at the ASI at touchdown either as a pilot or back seat instructor. It lands when it runs out of energy but I can look at a video to give you a number. OK so I approach trimmed out at 70mph and it actually touches down on the mains at a smidge under 40mph. Stick is then held at the same position - which keeps nose high(ish) and it comes to a complete halt within 5 seconds. Here is a short clip of an approach - the on board film I have is in edit for a crosswind landing film I need to publish.
https://youtu.be/qRaLHIfRFxY
From teaching my guys the challenge with students getting slow and almost placing it on the runway is partly the same challenge you highlight in the vertical descent - i.e. wind speed.
I'm sure you'll be the same but from circa 200ft my guys are all looking out of the front. Forget the instruments, the aircraft is trimmed for the approach speed and the ASI is not going to change all that much tbh.
So we are looking out of the window, why? because we want to judge our height to round out, then our yaw and our drift - referenced off the centreline typically. Lets keep consistent approach speeds at 70mph. So the round out will be the same, the float will be the same (assuming the same weight/wind/aircraft) so now if we do nothing more than use the lift equation... its going to touch down when? Well if I said 40mph then I have an AoA of X. If you want your students to touchdown at <40mph then the AoA must be >X. That isn't all that comfortable for new guys, it also promotes ballooning as they haul back on the stick too early and because the tailplane isn't working as well lateral stability isn't as good so yaw becomes a bigger issue - especially in a crosswind as the component is larger.
All that before I mentioned wind speed!! The issue with that is because now we are looking out of the window the perception of speed is ground speed now. So now two things can bite. Either the wind stops blowing or the wind on the day is significantly less than the day before and they feel they are faster than the ASI is showing because the ground speed looks high. (it is high on a relative basis) and now the aircraft runs out of energy before they are ready and it falls out of the sky. OR the wind is high so the energy is relatively high. The ground speed is low, they haul back on the stick to flare only to balloon and loose all the energy at the top of the balloon... hard landings are assured.
I get you and they are neat to do if done well but student pilots are not that are they? They are student pilots and that isn't to be mean to students. Its a reflection of the reality of a student with <10hrs P1. We have all been there and when I look back at my early years I'm surprised I'm here!!
I'm not sure if you recognise any of that but that is how I have found stuff. I'll get the crosswind landing film made and there is in cockpit landings from me. I'd send you the raw film but its a big file.
Takeoffs and landings are what I spend the most time teaching and most clients are not landing well consistently untill they have around ten landings in their log book. Because of my syllabus it is usually not till their third hour. I would love to find a faster simpler way to teach landings that did not compromise safety.
Yeah snap and I agree that keeps your guys as safe as they can be. Indeed to the point where I think you could almost spend 90% circuits and 10% all other things! maybe extreme but you take my point.
Wow you teach landings a lot earlier than me. Honestly my guys (if they are true new pilots i.e no glider, powered or microlight experience) if they are guys that can get the whole thing done in 40-50hours
The way I read the POH for the Cavalon the technique I teach is the recommended technique.
"4.14 Landing
Align gyroplane with rudder and correct drift with lateral control input, even if this results in a side slip indication
Maintain approach speed until approximately 5m above runway
Initiate round out to reduce sink rate and let ground approach
Perform final flare close to ground as speed will decay rapidly
Let gyroplane settle on main gear with nose wheel slightly above the ground
Hold nose wheel closely above ground and let it sit down with pedals neutral at the lowest possible ground speed
Maintain aft control stick to reduce speed until walking speed. Wheel brake may be used to assist, if needed"
All of that fits what I've said above? it will touchdown at a faster IAS with less AoA, slower with a higher pitch attitude.
When I discussed my experience with what appeared to me to be vapor lock an
AutoGyro USA representative told me I was the first one that ever had a problem with vapor lock in a Cavalon.
The Rotax distributor I talked said they were familiar with the problem of vapor lock in a Cavalon and did not have a solution.
They gave me some things to check about how it was plumbed and it appeared to me and the Rotax trained A&P mechanic I was working with that it was plumbed correctly.