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  • #91
    EdL, I'd wager that I've got more Sport Copter time than even Vance.

    How much gyro time have you in any Sport Copter?
    Until you've made a few take-offs and landings in one, you won't understand the difference.
    And I am the
    "poorly-informed" one here?

    Why not take your Magni and plunk it down badly crabbed, nosewheel first, and report back.

    PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

    "
    When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

    Comment


    • #92
      As a flight instructor I allow clients to make mistakes so they can learn from them.

      Teaching is about priorities and for me the priorities for landing are:
      1. Being over the centerline.
      2. Maintaining approach speed until beginning the round out.
      3. Beginning the round out around 15 feet above the runway.

      I like to finish with a flare but it is not as big a priority as the other three.

      With these three priorities managed; I have not had a client touch down nose wheel first or at high speed.

      In my opinion being aligned with the direction of travel is simply not that high a priority if the other things are managed.

      I would probably allow 25 degrees misalignment with the runway before taking the controls.

      At gyroplane events I often just watch people take off and land. In my opinion based on my observations many of the gyroplanes are landed more than 20 degrees misaligned with the direction of travel without mishap.
      Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

      Comment


      • #93
        Kolibri - please drop your turds in Kolibriís Korner. Thanks!

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Vance View Post
          My 1930 Velocette had a friction pad for a steering dampener. The big knob on the top set the pressure on a spring just like The Predator.
          Excuse the tangential question, Vance -- is that a K series in the picture?
          Long ago a friend of mine had a Velocette Thruxton that I liked, but it was a few decades younger than your machine. He also had a much older Ariel Red Hunter, and a Vincent Rapide, and I was very envious of the collection.

          P.S. The lead-lag hinges on the 18A blades are damped by vertical pressure on a stack of discs. I check and adjust the pressure when necessary as an aide in avoiding ground resonance.

          Comment


          • #95
            At gyroplane events I often just watch people take off and land. In my opinion based on my observations many of the gyroplanes are landed more than 20 degrees misaligned with the direction of travel without mishap.
            Including a wheelbarrow landing?
            Including mismanagement of the hard-linked rudder pedals, and touching down the NW cross-controlled?
            I trained in a Calidus; I clearly recall the landing challenges as a student. They're unnecessary.

            Sorry, Vance, but you apparently don't have any (or enough) Sport Copter time to appreciate its landing gear benefits.
            Thus, you continue these apologetics for the inherently more difficult and less safe raked and linked NW of AutoGyro, ELA, etc.
            I urge you to experience the difference firsthand. EdL might believe it coming from you.

            Regards,
            Kolibri
            PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

            "
            When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by WaspAir View Post
              Excuse the tangential question, Vance -- is that a K series in the picture?
              Long ago a friend of mine had a Velocette Thruxton that I liked, but it was a few decades younger than your machine. He also had a much older Ariel Red Hunter, and a Vincent Rapide, and I was very envious of the collection.

              P.S. The lead-lag hinges on the 18A blades are damped by vertical pressure on a stack of discs. I check and adjust the pressure when necessary as an aide in avoiding ground resonance.
              The picture is not mine and it is purported to be a KTT. As I recall mine was a KSS.

              I lost all most of my memorabilia in a house fire.

              I also ran a sort of 1957 Velocette Venom in the desert district 37 races. I say sort of because it was rough.

              I later moved up to a 1964 Triumph T120C for desert racing.

              I briefly road raced a Velocette Thruxton of about 1968 vintage. The picture is not mine.

              I also have some time road racing a BSA Gold Star Clubman in 500 production. The picture is very similar to the one I raced around 1970 I think it was a 1965.

              I love singles with big flywheels and in 1975 finished first for the season in the AFM 500 GP on a home made single cylinder ESSO. The American Federation of Motorcycles was a California amateur based road racing club.

              One of my favorite bikes was a Norton production racer, again not my bike in the picture but it looked very similar with lots of little racing tricks and the big single front disk.

              I road raced from 1965 to 1989 and then focused on Bonneville till my mishap in 1995.

              I have only dabbled in land speed racing since.
              Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

              Comment


              • #97
                In my opinion Ed's Magni M16 is relatively insensitive to direction of travel misalignment on touch down and landing roll accidents are noticeably absent in the NTSB reports. I recall one wire strike and one engine out vertical descent.

                A flight instructor friend of mine who trains in a Magni M16 did not like his experience in a Sport Copter and asked me to transition his client into the Sport Copter.

                People make many mistakes landing without mishap despite your own trepidations Kolibri.

                If you had problems landing the Calidus Kolibri; you were probably touching down with too much speed.

                I like all of the gyroplanes I have flown and am always amazed at how out of shape they can get before I take the controls without an accident.

                All of the Sport Copters I have flown were single seat so I have no time instructing in one. I have less than ten hours in Sport Copters.

                I have transitioned two clients into Sport Copters with Jim's help. For my client with a Sport Copter II I trained him to private pilot and he received additional training from Jim Vanek. I did not fly his Sport Copter II.
                Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

                Comment


                • #98
                  EdL brought up the landing mishaps that AutoGyro and ELA are known for:

                  By contrast, the Magni (and the AR-1 and the Titanium - and it even looks like WaspAir's A&S) have a trailing axle, which means the nosewheel tends to "auto-correct" on roll-out because of the craft's inertia. Which makes me wonder why other manufacturers don't do the same? So many accidents I've read about appear to be directly related to that.

                  Can anyone help me understand why big players such as Autogyro and ELA have the nosewheel configuration they do?

                  Sure, "nosewheel design is moot if you have no speed when you put it down". But it's the cause of an accident if you DON'T put it down with no speed and the gyro darts off the runway because of the design. The accident reports sure seem to back this up. And when the accidents occur, they seem to be blamed on "poor pilot training/performance". I'd contend they're "poor pilot training/performance in a poorly-designed aircraft". Again, I'm at a loss to understand the benefit of the axle-forward design, especially in craft designed for low-time pilots.
                  I've been flying a Sport Copter II a lot lately, and Jim demonstrated how rudely and badly it can be plunked down without any drama, whereas a Calidus, etc. would tump over.
                  In fact, your student/SCII owner commented to Jim that the SCII suspension and NW saved him from a tip-over that day at VNY.
                  Many Sport Copter owners have expressed similar reports to the company.

                  How many gyros can be landed (i.e., including the NW) in a crosswind with rudder input, cross-controlled like an airplane to maintain runway centerline?
                  Very few.

                  A pedal linked gyro nosewheel is a common adjunct of the inexpensive raked NW fork.
                  It costs money and adds weight to offer differential braking (toe brakes, twin master cylinders, free-castering NW).
                  Few gyro customers know to insist upon it, and most of them are probably airplane pilots accustomed to toe brakes.
                  An ab initio gyro pilot, however, wouldn't likely know the difference. As long as their landing technique is a near perfect zero-rollout, they're OK.

                  But, as the 2017 Mentone MTOsport N571UJ
                  landing tipover sadly showed, that NW design is always lurking.
                  This sort of accident needn't even be possible:


                  According to the pilot's accident report, when he touched down on the main landing gear, he applied "moderate" right rudder to maintain runway alignment and to avoid slipping. He stated he should have raised the nose to reduce airspeed, but instead he lowered the nose and struck the runway. The pilot explained that on this particular gyroplane, the nose wheel and rudder are interconnected; that is, the nose wheel does not pivot on a caster. When the gyroplane touched down, it 'jerked" abruptly to the right and tipped over. The pilot concluded, "This accident was the result of pilot error. There was no malfunction [of the gyroplane, flight controls, or engine]."


                  I suspect that the pedal-linked/raked NW will be phased out, as other companies catch up to 1989 Sport Copter technology.

                  Safe flying!
                  Kolibri


                  PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                  "
                  When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I looked at the last three years of gyroplane accidents in the USA reported to the NTSB (39) and I can only see one where the linked steering may have contributed to a tip over on landing.

                    From the NTSB report: "The sport pilot of the gyroplane stated that, upon touchdown, he should have raised the aircraft's nose to reduce airspeed; however, he allowed the nosewheel to contact the runway."

                    I read that as he didn't round out, touched down with too much ground speed and did not use the rotor to slow down.

                    From talking to witnesses at Mentone I suspect he landed with a tail wind.

                    Having experienced bad landings with clients in AutoGyro products it is clear to me that landing in an ELA or AutoGyro product is not as hazardous as some people imagine.

                    My challenge with this sort of gossip is that people don't focus on the things that are actually important to learn or decide not to fly at all because it is simply too dangerous.

                    I try to imagine a representative from an insurance company or someone from the FAA reading about the poor design and expect it is not good for any of us.

                    Please stop the gossip.
                    Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

                    Comment


                    • While I still do believe Autogyros and ELAs have higher mishap rates (ďratesĒ - not just raw numbers), thatís strictly my opinion and Iím open to the idea that my impression reflects factors other than nosewheel design and geometry, such as just the volume of those flying, training differences (although there are some instructors who teach cross-brand, it SEEMS instructors TEND to teach mostly in one brand, especially for Eurotubs), etc.

                      I think Vance did a very good job of using facts to correct my belief that nosewheel geometry is the factor I thought it was. I was particularly impressed by the amount of trail in the Eclipse, once I better understood the concept.

                      I did my homework extensively for a year before I bought my Magni. It is my choice and I was actually very close to pulling the trigger on the AR-1, which I still believe is an excellent machine. But Iím not intending to over-promote the Magni - it was right for ME and may not be for someone else. Iím happy to share my personal opinions but am not interested in being a salesman. Itís a solid gyro, as are the AR-1, Titanium, Eclipse, and Autogyro products. All, including the Magni, have their pros and cons.

                      Please donít misquote me or drag me into arguments you may personally wish to make by misrepresenting what Ií've said or what I've since learned. Thanks.

                      ADD: To say "I disagree (or agree) with you about xxx" is fine and leads (hopefully) to good discussion, as happened earlier on regarding crosswind landings. To say "Doofus21 said xxx" and NOT express one's own agreement, disagreement, or other thoughts other than to try to push the issue to Doofus21 to defend their comments, is trying to be divisive and is just plain cowardly. That's particularly true when that's presented out of context.

                      /Ed

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by EdL View Post

                        Please donít misquote me or drag me into arguments you may personally wish to make by misrepresenting what Ií've said or what I've since learned. Thanks.

                        /Ed
                        I will do my best not to misquote you Ed.

                        I like the way you think and question things and do not want to drive you away.

                        Your background in fixed wings is helpful to understanding and you express yourself well.

                        I feel you are an asset to the gyroplane community and the Rotary Wing Forum.
                        Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

                        Comment


                        • When ALL ground handling incidents are considered (i.e., not just landings), I suspect that many more are, at least in part, attributable to linked steering.
                          Also, many tip-overs are not reported. We all know this.

                          Besides, how many, what percentage of linked steering attributed incidents are acceptable?

                          I see no reason for antiquated and less-than-safe nosewheel designs to be still used in 2019 (requiring training work-arounds),
                          when at least one manufacturer showed a much better way 30 years ago.

                          One simply doesn't see such ground incidents in Sport Copters.
                          It's proper to discuss this aloud.

                          Regards,
                          Kolibri


                          PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                          "
                          When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                          Comment


                          • Vance: please do not assume that because my statement followed yours my comment about misquoting was directed at you, though thatís completely understandable.

                            /Ed

                            Comment


                            • "One simply doesn't see such ground incidents in Sport Copters. "

                              I've no idea, but I would certainly hope so considering there are far fewer Sport Copters airworthy and flying today than those built by Auto-Gyro or Magni or ELA.

                              How many Sport Copter gyros do you estimate are airworthy as at today ?

                              Comment


                              • I don't know, Steve_UK.
                                However many though, had their landing gear and NW contributed to ground incidents, we'd have seen them.
                                There is nothing to "bite" a Sport Copter pilot on the ground; that's my point.

                                There's also nothing to "bite" them in the air, either.
                                No cracking masts or rotor blades, or failing rotorheads.
                                It's a nice feeling.

                                PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                                "
                                When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                                Comment

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