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  • #76
    Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
    Vance, I never said that you had.


    Which gyro had all that before the other?
    Shouldn't you rephrase to be accurate and fair to Jim Vanek:
    "like the Sport Copter The Predator has . . . "



    You're right, it hadn't occurred to me . . . because I didn't claim that.
    They don't have a free-castering trailing-link NW.



    You're forgetting my qualifier "generally" and turning into a personal insult of Tim, which was not my intention.
    If they generally did "know to demand anything better or safe" then AutoGyro would have no choice but to provide it.



    I agree. But, as with other gyro pilots and their machines' particular issues, I became sufficiently proficient to handle it.


    It's odd how you never chastised RAF or RAFSA for their own poor design.
    Or that you never rebuked CFI/broker Dofin Fritts who was shamefully
    "content to pass this safety challenge on to the next owner" when I bought it.

    I looked into what it would take to rectify the landing gear (Sport Copter had done so once), and the nosewheel mod is extensive.
    I've sunk plenty of money into my RAF, and learned a lot. It's a manifestly better and safer RAF than what I purchased.
    I'll recommend to potential buyers what remains to upgrade (e.g., the landing gear).
    As you say, many RAF owners have learned to fly that gyro without mishap.

    Regards,
    Kolibri
    I stand corrected Kolibri Ed was the one who felt there was no trail on the AutoGyro and ELA products.

    Your confusion is more narrowly focused.

    Sport Copter did not invent free castering nose wheels or trailing link suspension.

    Mark Givans did not copy Sport Copters free castering nose wheel.

    Smokey Aleman designed and built the trailing link nose gear on The Predator and had never seen a Sport Copter. The design is different and was in a large part directed by what Smokey had laying around the shop in scrap. He was trying to get it done quickly. The spring medium is off a truck leaf axle bump stop. I would have done it a different way.

    Many people feel there is no safety advantage with a trailing link front suspension and that is why it is not more popular on fixed wings and gyroplanes.

    A case can be made that more front suspension travel is a tip over safety hazard with a tricycle landing gear on a gyroplane.

    People didn't ask for something different in front suspension from ELA and AutoGyro because they did not want something different, not because they were ignorant.

    I have my design compromise preferences and I don't feel the need to be critical of others unless someone asks or someone pretends they know more than the designer.

    Your statements condemning ELA and AutoGyro struck me as particularly hypocritical considering what you have most of you gyroplane flying experience in.
    Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

    Comment


    • #77
      I stand corrected Kolibri Ed was the one who felt there was no trail on the AutoGyro and ELA products.
      Thank you for clearing that up.


      Sport Copter did not invent free castering nose wheels or trailing link suspension.
      I believe that Sport Copter (Jim Vanek) was the first to offer a free-castering trailing-link gyro nosewheel.
      That was in 1989.
      Where'd you get the idea for the plastic discs with dielectric grease? That's Jim's technology.
      I think it's insulting not to give him proper credit for that.



      People didn't ask for something different in front suspension from ELA and AutoGyro because they did not want something different, not because they were ignorant.
      Those who are ignorant don't even know what they should ask for.
      It's called the Dunning-Kruger Effect. We're all subject to it.
      I've watched for years at Oshkosh the passers-by at those booths, and they haven't a clue about the net benefits of superior nosewheel designs.
      Lots of ooohs and aaaahs over the pretty paint, though.
      (I was the same in 2013, and contracted with Chris Lord to train me in a Calidus.)



      I have my design compromise preferences and I don't feel the need to be critical of others unless someone asks or someone pretends they know more than the designer.
      With some real study and firsthand comparison with better machines, it's not that difficult to know more than some designers.
      Remember, the MT03 began as an ELA copy, which was a Magni copy.
      In my opinion, AutoGyro lost huge engineering cred with their crack prone <700 hour Rotor System 1.



      You statements condemning ELA and AutoGyro struck me as particularly hypocritical considering what you have most of you gyroplane flying experience in.
      If I were extolling the RAF as an example of superior engineering, while denigrating AG or ELA, then that would be hypocritical.
      However, I think I fairly point out deficiencies in them all. Not trying to skewer any owners in particular.

      Fly safely!
      Kolibr
      i
      PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

      "
      When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Kolibri View Post

        I believe that Sport Copter (Jim Vanek) was the first to offer a free-castering trailing-link gyro nosewheel.
        That was in 1989.
        Where'd you get the idea for the plastic discs with dielectric grease? That's Jim's technology.
        I think it's insulting not to give him proper credit for that.


        Fly safely!
        Kolibr[/COLOR]i
        They have had free castering nose wheels on tricycle gear aircraft for as long as they have had tricycle gear.

        My father was right in the middle of the development of tricycle gear aircraft.

        My 1928 Indian Chief had trailing link front suspension.

        My 1930 Velocette had a friction pad for a steering dampener. The big knob on the top set the pressure on a spring just like The Predator.

        It is not Jim Vanek's technology.
        Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Vance View Post
          I like using the vertical card compass in The Predator
          Vance

          Is you VC vacuum driven? I only ask because I have almost the same set up with Garmin 296 next to my magnetic VC and when I turn on my GPS it interferes with my VC, it seems to swing towards the gps by about 10 degree.

          Cheers

          Jordan

          Jordan

          Comment


          • #80
            Good morning Jordan; that is a good question.

            My vertical card compass is magnetic.

            When we spin her on the compass rose we have everything turned on.

            I have tried turning off the GPS and it did not make a measurable difference.

            I don’t see a significant error introduced by either the Garmin 196 or 496 GPS that i use.

            On the Cavalon I was flying I installed a clock in the panel and in interfered with the panel mounted vertical card compass significantly and I could not find adjustments that would correct it for the full spin.



            Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

            Comment


            • #81
              Vance, a free-castering trailing-link nosewheel with plastic discs shimmy dampener on a gyroplane definitely is Jim Vanek's technology.
              Even after 30 years, it's still not only unique, but the best gyro nosewheel today. How sad that you cannot simply credit the man for it.
              PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

              "
              When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
                Vance, a free-castering trailing-link nosewheel with plastic discs shimmy dampener on a gyroplane definitely is Jim Vanek's technology.
                Even after 30 years, it's still not only unique, but the best gyro nosewheel today. How sad that you cannot simply credit the man for it.
                A short description of the choices for a steering nose wheel on a tricycle gear aircraft.

                We have two main choices for steering; linked steering or free castering with differential braking. The debate on which works best is never ending and both are used on modern aircraft.

                We have two main choices for suspension that includes steering; sliding elements like a modern motorcycle fork (a single slider is the most common on aircraft) or some sort of linked suspension. There are many variations of how to lay out the links and how to dampen the travel; a simple leading or trailing are the most common layout for the links. A bending element can also be used.

                For a shimmy damper we have two main choices: a friction damper or a hydraulic dampener. A friction damper can be some sort of clamp or some sort of friction disk with a disk being the most common. A hydraulic damper can be a hydraulic cylinder pumping some medium or a circular thing with vanes.

                Based on what little I know about the Sport Copter shimmy damper it is different than what we did on The Predator. The disk on The Predator is free floating, thinner and uses springs to maintain the pressure on the disk much like my 1930 Velocette.

                Based on what I can see of the Sport Copter trailing link it is very different than what we did on The Predator.

                I feel Jim Vanek is very innovative and I like the quality of the work he does.

                He most certainly did not invent free castering nose wheels, disk shimmy dampeners or trailing link suspension.

                I don't know if he is the first to try these three choices all together on a gyroplane.

                I don't have the arrogance or enough time flying a Sport Copter gyroplane to pronounce they have "the best gyro nose wheel today."

                A free castering nose wheel is my preference; that does not make it the best.

                A trailing link without suspension damping would not be my first choice for a nose gear on a gyroplane.

                A disk shimmy damper has some limitations. I would not use one on a road racing sidecar. It appears to me be acceptable in a gyroplane.
                Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

                Comment


                • #83
                  Interesting info - thanks.

                  /Ed

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    I don't know if he is the first to try these three choices all together on a gyroplane.
                    He was. I'd have thought you'd have known that.

                    I don't have the arrogance or enough time flying a Sport Copter gyroplane to pronounce they have "the best gyro nose wheel today."
                    Show me any other gyro which can be landed over 20 degrees crabbed and yet straighten out on its own.
                    It's practically newbie-proof, and eliminates runway incursions due to pedal hard-linked NW designs.

                    Instead of extolling superior gyro designs for safety, you continue to excuse the lamentably poor/simple NW raked forks of AG and ELA.
                    You express your "
                    preference" for _______ without judgment. It's a very safe stance; I understand it.

                    I only mentioned the Sport Copter's superior NW because of the credible concern expressed by EdL:


                    By contrast, the Magni (and the AR-1 and the Titanium - and it even looks like WaspAir's A&S) have a trailing axle, which means the nosewheel tends to "auto-correct" on roll-out because of the craft's inertia. Which makes me wonder why other manufacturers don't do the same? So many accidents I've read about appear to be directly related to that.

                    Can anyone help me understand why big players such as Autogyro and ELA have the nosewheel configuration they do?

                    Sure, "nosewheel design is moot if you have no speed when you put it down". But it's the cause of an accident if you DON'T put it down with no speed and the gyro darts off the runway because of the design. The accident reports sure seem to back this up. And when the accidents occur, they seem to be blamed on "poor pilot training/performance". I'd contend they're "poor pilot training/performance in a poorly-designed aircraft". Again, I'm at a loss to understand the benefit of the axle-forward design, especially in craft designed for low-time pilots.
                    I forecast that the safety disparity between most Euro-nosewheels and what Sport Copter has provided for 30 years will narrow (e.g., the TAG and AR-1 have begun to).
                    Meanwhile, I'll remember who did it first.

                    Regards,
                    Kolibri
                    PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                    "
                    When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Sounds to me like you’re just being argumentative - again. Hard to take your “info” seriously. It’s not substantiated, certainly not constructive and seems based on personal opinions more than actual facts you back up.

                      There’s a common theme here.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
                        Show me any other gyro which can be landed over 20 degrees crabbed and yet straighten out on its own.
                        It's practically newbie-proof, and eliminates runway incursions due to pedal hard-linked NW designs.

                        Instead of extolling superior gyro designs for safety, you continue to excuse the lamentably poor/simple NW raked forks of AG and ELA.
                        You express your "
                        preference" for _______ without judgment. It's a very safe stance; I understand it.

                        I only mentioned the Sport Copter's superior NW because of the credible concern expressed by EdL:


                        I forecast that the safety disparity between most Euro-nosewheels and what Sport Copter has provided for 30 years will narrow (e.g., the TAG and AR-1 have begun to).
                        Meanwhile, I'll remember who did it first.

                        Regards,
                        Kolibri
                        A runway incursion is an incident where an unauthorized aircraft, vehicle or person is on a runway. I don't know how a free castering nose wheel would prevent a runway incursion.

                        Every gyroplane I have flown will land 20 degrees misaligned with the runway and recover on its own. It is certainly the case with an MTO Sport, a Cavalon or The Predator.

                        It is possible for a pilot to prevent any aircraft from taking care of itself in any phase of flight.

                        To suggest any gyroplane is practically newbie-proof ignores reality. Sport Copter has not been accident free or newbie proof despite their low sales numbers.

                        The American Ranger and the Titanium Explorer do not have a free castering nose wheel and in my opinion are operating under a completely different set of compromises.

                        In my opinion the only thing we agree on is that Jim Vanek has done a lot of interesting things.

                        I feel your ego will continue to prevent you from learning.
                        Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Hey, Vance -
                          I wonder if you knew that the Air & Space 18A gyroplane, in serial production with a standard airworthiness type certificate in 1965, has a damped castering nosewheel steered by differential braking? It has those features and a nice suspension strut with a centering pin/collar when extended, as well.

                          Isn't it interesting how some people can invent things 25 years after they were in public use?

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                          • #88
                            I thought it did J.R. but unlike Kolibri; I try to stick to information I have confidence in.

                            Thank you for the information.

                            I loved our flights together.

                            You really set Kolibri off explaining about ground effect.

                            He has collected a mass of data to misinterpret and in my opinion still doesn’t have a clue about how ground effect works. He appears trapped in a jungle of semantics insulated from learning by ego.

                            Ed has been managing him well.
                            Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              I mistyped "incursion" for "incident".

                              Every gyroplane I have not flown will land 20 degrees misaligned with the runway and recover on its own.
                              It is certainly the case with an MTO Sport, a Cavalon or The Predator.
                              I guess you meant "I have flown" instead of "I have not flown".

                              In my opinion, for you to allege this of AutoGyro machines is irresponsible and dangerous, as some owner may try it.

                              Please share a video of you setting down a Cavalon 20 degrees misaligned with the runway, touching the nosewheel down either first or in conjunction with either/both of the mains.
                              That would be a dramatic airshow event.


                              The MTOsport landing tipover at 2017 Mentone wouldn't have happened in any Sport Copter.
                              Free-castering NW was subsequently the talk of the show.
                              It astonishes me that you cannot admit this notion, but you're a CFI teaching in other gyros so perhaps I shouldn't be astonished.


                              To suggest any gyroplane is practically newbie-proof ignores reality.
                              I'm sorry that you're incapable of reading and replying to something within its context, i.e. the nosewheel during take-offs and landings.
                              It makes for tedium dealing with you.


                              Sport Copter has not been accident free or newbie proof despite their low sales numbers.
                              (Oh, nice dig there.)
                              I've very thoroughly studied the Sport Copter accidents, and have found none that were attributable to poor design or materials.
                              Pilot error, all.
                              Can AutoGyro or ELA claim that? Celier? TAG?


                              ______
                              The A&S18A is a certified gyro.
                              Great, but show me any E-AB gyro other than a Sport Copter with such safe and rugged landing gear (nosewheel in particular).

                              There is rarely anything "new under the sun" and what is often new about technology is the arrangement of the old.
                              I'd say that Jim Vanek has arranged several existing items (along with his own greased plastic discs) into a unique, safe, and highly effective nosewheel,
                              which certainly was no copy of the A&S18A.

                              _________

                              Sounds to me like you’re just being argumentative - again. Hard to take your “info” seriously. It’s not substantiated, certainly not constructive and seems based on personal opinions more than actual facts you back up.

                              There’s a common theme here.

                              EdL, you asked aloud for a gyro landing gear to reduce your training variables:

                              But for me personally the accident reports and anecdotes for gyros were just too telling. Way more departures from the pavement on landing for Autogyros and ELAs, in my opinion, than for Magnis. . . . And I know it’s at least partially a “training issue” but at my age and with my short attention span, I just like reducing the variables as much as I can...

                              . . . yet when I did so by explaining the Sport Copter nosewheel advantage, I get a snide reply from you.

                              As they say, "
                              No good deed goes unpunished."

                              PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                              "
                              When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Here’s a thought, Kolibri: what if you put your poorly-informed, judgmental, argumentative posts in “Kolibri’s Korner” (a somewhat narcissistic corner of the chat) so people interested in coming to this chat to add to their gyro knowledge can choose whether or not to indulge in your poorly-informed, judgmental, argumentative approach? That would be most of your posts but at least they’d be all in one place.

                                Comment

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