7 July 2018 - N623AG Calidus - hard landing - Tacoma Narrows Airport - minor injuries

[N447MR]

Yes, N447MR, I also saw that, and expected somebody to mention it.
However, I have been in the Sport Copter trainer when Jim Vanek intentionally landed crabbed by touching down the NW first.
You can believe me on this meanwhile, until they post a video of it, further demonstrating the safety value of a trailed link free castering nosewheel.

Regards,
Kolibri

Cool. Fair enough. I didn't want to get into the nose wheel debate, just point out how that rotor can overcome a lot if you keep flying it. My AC is linked, but seems like there's play in it a it. No issues, never thought about it really. It also has diff brakes. Does just using the brakes make it turn as tight from a start or otherwise as a linked NW? That rotor can save you from a lot if you remember, or it can help make things worse if you don't.

 

[N447MR]

Which video. I was late to this thread and not sure which video as there are several. Help with a new link or post #.

Kolibri posted it of the sportcopter landing crabbed several posts back. Looks like a horrible lucky landing, but I guess it's a really well executed, good piloted bad landing, lol

 

[Vance]

No Title

In my opinion linked nose wheel steering is not a primary cause of gyroplane takeoff mishaps.

I feel pretending that linked nose wheel steering is one of the primary causes of takeoff accidents diverts focus from the things that do cause takeoff accidents and detracts from the learning process.

In my opinion rotor management, over control, misalignment with the direction of travel, lateral drift across the runway and early lift off are the primary things that contribute to takeoff mishaps.

It is my observation "chirping" a tire on takeoff is not particularly hazardous although it may be disquieting.

"Chirping" the nose tire on takeoff happens often with most students learning to fly most gyroplanes and in my experience; requires a combination of several other mistakes to become problematic.

If "chirping" a nose tire was as dangerous as has been postulated; I and most flight instructors would have run out of luck long ago.

 

[Vance]

Which video. I was late to this thread and not sure which video as there are several. Help with a new link or post #.

This video John; that in my opinion has nothing to do with takeoff mishaps and little to do with a free castering nose wheel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5zWLTQXcUI

It is a good demonstration of what can happen with the rotor near flight rpm if the rotor disk angle is mismanaged.

 

[Kolibri]

not a primary cause
not particularly hazardous

Sure, Vance, then let's just leave them in since they're not so commonly dangerous as I postulate.

Can a linked NW be successfully managed by most students? Of course. And so can a stock RAF without an H-stab.
But there's no compelling safety reason to use them. They add to risk, vs. reducing it.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[Vance]

Sure, Vance, then let's just leave them in since they're not so commonly dangerous as I postulate.

Can a linked NW be successfully managed by most students? Of course. And so can a stock RAF without an H-stab.
But there's no compelling safety reason to use them. They add to risk, vs. reducing it.

Regards,
Kolibri

It is easy for me to find fatal RAF accidents that I feel in large part can be attributed to a high thrust line and no horizontal stabilizer. I don’t care for the feel of an RAF without a horizontal stabilizer. I have never crashed an RAF. That is just my opinion based on what I have learned about gyroplanes.

It is hard for me to find gyroplane takeoff accidents that I feel can be attributable to linked nose wheel steering. That too is just an opinion based on extensive experience flying a variety of gyroplanes with linked nose wheel steering.

My experience with linked nose wheel steering says it works just fine on takeoff.

This nonsensical statement is a good example of why I have no desire to “debate” with you. You are not willing to stay on the subject and often write irrational statements as though they had meaning.

I understand that you don’t like linked nose wheel steering and you are not alone in that. That only means you have an opinion. It does not make linked nose wheel steering bad or dangerous simply because you don’t like it.

You have opined repeatedly that you did not get good flight instruction and have often condemned your flight instructor and the aircraft he sold you.

My suggestion to you is to get some good flight instruction and learn how to fly a gyroplane well before telling us all how gyroplanes should be designed and how dangerous certain design aspects of popular gyroplanes are.

 

[Brent Drake]

I always teach the landing and takeoff by the book. But also teach why the book says how it is to be done this way. This way the student has a more thorough understanding of the dynamics taking place as the maneuvers are being executed
I believe that all students in the initial learning curve should have a castering nose wheel for X-winds.

 

[Kolibri]

My suggestion to you is to get some good flight instruction and learn how to fly a gyroplane well . . .

LOL, you're still whistling that tired old tune. You've never seen me fly, Vance, so you cannot comment on my skills.
My gyro CFIs would disagree with your silly "assessment".
I've been subsequently trained, for example, by Jim Vanek in unusual attitudes and other maneuvers.
He's invited me to be one of the first to fly Sport Copter's new M2. I am honored by his confidence in me.
Please do give him a call and relay your uninformed and fatuous opinion of my flying.

. . . before telling us all how gyroplanes should be designed and how dangerous certain design aspects of popular gyroplanes are.

Let's be honest: I could have 2,000 hours in gyros and you would still search for a way to denigrate me as a "low time" pilot.

Yet you have the gall to pooh-pooh modern e-nav because your Predator shakes too much to use touchscreens and your reduced fine motor skills preclude them.
Glass houses . . .

I understand that you don’t like linked nose wheel steering and you are not alone in that. That only means you have an opinion.
It does not make linked nose wheel steering bad or dangerous simply because you don’t like it.

I believe that it's bad and dangerous because it's bad or dangerous, not because it's some random opinion that I hold or merely something I heard.
Here at Oshkosh I chatted with Vanek about it, and he's amazed that it's even a matter for debate. He agrees that it's bad and dangerous, and
has had free castering NW on his gyros for some 25 years. (Before then, they were semi-castering.)

Are examples of takeoff accidents due to linked NW difficult to isolate? Perhaps.
But, I'll bet you I can find a few, and even a few are too much for a wisely avoided manner of steering.

There's no compelling safety reason to build gyros with linked nosewheels.
They add to risk vs. reducing it, during taxi, takeoff, and landing.
There's nothing about that you can reasonably dispute.
But go ahead and continue to defend poor engineering in the Euro gyros.

______

I believe that all students in the initial learning curve should have a castering nose wheel for X-winds.

Thanks, Brent, and I certainly agree.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[Vance]

For those who may have been distracted by what may appear to be a debate; I offer a summary of what I feel are the salient points of the thread and share my opinions:

According to witnesses this was a takeoff accident and in my opinion unrelated to the linked nose wheel steering.

Most gyroplane kits sold today in the USA have some sort of linked nose wheel steering.

The exceptions are all of the gyroplanes produced by Rotary Flight Dynamics and Sport Copter that have a free castering nose wheel and use differential braking to steer at speeds below where the rudder is effective.

The Titanium Explorer and the American Ranger use soft linked nose wheel steering and a lot of trail.

I have not had difficulty teaching anyone to use hard linked nose wheel steering as used in the Calidus that is the subject of this thread.

The Predator that I do most of my training in has a free castering nose wheel and most of my clients have to transition into a hard linked nose wheel steering for their check ride because that is what the examiners I recommend use.

I am not aware of any takeoff accidents in AutoGyro products (like the Calidus) in the USA that were attributable to the linked nose wheel steering.

Although I prefer free castering I see no safety takeoff challenge to the linked nose gear in the Calidus.

I recommend managing the disk in relation to the cross wind component (learned with practice) and taking off using the instructions in the POH if you have one.

Hopefully you will spend enough time with your flight instructor practicing takeoffs to become proficient at rotor management and keeping the aircraft on the centerline.

Compared to a fixed wing a gyroplane takeoff is procedure heavy and not particularly difficult.

I agree with Brent that understanding the why of the procedures is important.

 

[Kolibri]

Who says it was landing.
The only official word I've seen so far is - "CRASHED UNDER UNKN CIRCUMSTANCES" from FAA ASIAS

Witnesses reported 623AG crashed on takeoff.

Vance, what witnesses?
The news report twice attributed it to a hard landing, and the FAA ASIAS doesn't mention a takeoff.

A gyrocopter — part airplane, part helicopter — hard-landed at Tacoma Narrows Airport in Gig Harbor.
A gyrocopter was damaged and the pilot slightly injured after a hard landing at Tacoma Narrows Airport on Saturday.
https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article214504779.html

Also, there are no comments so far about N623AG at http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/07/calidus-autogyro-n623ag-accident.html




So, until evidence otherwise suggests, it appears that N623AG had a hard landing, as I originally posted.


______________
On 07-15-2018 Vance posted:

I feel there is value in imagining what could go wrong.

Except, of course, when Kolibri speculates on the matter. Then, it's "pretending". :wink:

A forgiving aircraft also makes a difference.

Except, of course, when Kolibri stresses the forgiving nature of trailed full castering nosewheels in Sport Copter gyros.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[JEFF TIPTON]

Something that was supposed to go up into the air didn't get very far off the runway Saturday.

from the first paragraph of the news article.

Question might be, how long airborne.

 

[Kolibri]

I read that, though it struck me as reporter generic prose vs. something substantial based on witness reports,
especially since "hard landing" was twice mentioned. But, you may have something with "how long airborne".
Perhaps it did lift off and then settle badly.

Yesterday I met a CFI who knows the pilot, so I may learn additional information.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[Vance]

From the Preliminary NTSB report:
"On July 7, 2018, about 1300 Pacific daylight time an Auto Gyro, Calidus, gyrocopter, N623AG, sustained substantial damage subsequent to a forced landing at Tacoma Narrows airport (TIW), Tacoma, Washington. The sport pilot and his passenger were not injured. The gyrocopter was registered to and operated by a private individual under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed. The local flight was originating at the time. The pilot stated that during his first attempt for takeoff from runway 17, he experienced problems getting the pre-rotator to engage with the main rotor ring gear. He cancelled his takeoff clearance and taxied to a run up area where he successfully engaged the pre-rotator to the main rotor ring gear. He then requested and received clearance from the air traffic control tower to depart from runway 17. He stated that he achieved 200 RPM on the main rotor and began his take off roll. During the takeoff, at an unknown altitude, the gyrocopter began shaking violently, descended and hit the runway where it skidded approximately 100 ft, ran off of the runway and came to rest on its left-hand side. The gyrocopter was moved to a secure location for further examination."

 

[Kolibri]

Interesting. A lot going on for a new pilot who took delivery 2 weeks earlier.
It sounds to me as though he began his takeoff roll with meager AoA, barely lifted off with insufficient RRPM, and then saw RRPM decay and rotor flap.
(I also wonder if his prerotator hadn't disengaged. Perhaps insufficient lube of the Bendix drive?)

When I flew the Calidus, I never liked its mere 200rrpm prerotation/disengage/add throttle scheme.
(The AutoGyro type of prerotator driveshaft/U-joint cannot prerotate with full back stick, so that last 100+rrpm must be gained during the takeoff roll.)

He had a passenger. Very new gyro pilots should consider amassing at least 25-50 hours solo time after their checkride before taking up pax.
I didn't, and although I had no incidences or even scares, I realized later that it would have been better to have first flown more on my own.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[DavePA11]

Is it possible in the Calidus to forget to disengage rotor break?

 

[Kolibri]

Hmmm, I don't know. He did see 200rrpm, so would that be possible with the rotor brake on?

 

[Vance]

In a Calidus to begin pre-rotation the pilot switches from brake to flight making it unlikely that the rotor brake is left on.

There is more to the takeoff procedure in the pilots operating handbook (POH) than simply reaching two hundred rotor rpm.

Many people flying AutoGyro products develop their own takeoff technique or forget to follow the procedure in the POH. This may lead to challenges during takeoff. I teach pilots to follow the POH for takeoff and landing.

The pilot's report reads a lot like a low rotor rpm lift off followed by blade divergence as discussed earlier in this thread.

Often fixed wing pilots forget to manage the rotor and are after airspeed alone because that is what is important in a fixed wing. They can get the airspeed faster without the drag of the rotor so they modify the takeoff procedure that is detailed in their POH.

In my opinion the pre-rotation system works well if the POH procedure is followed. I feel two hundred rotor rpm is plenty to begin the takeoff roll and their system prevents problems with torque on the takeoff roll by forcing the disengagement of the pre-rotator before bringing the cyclic back.

When the final report comes out it will list how much time in type the pilot has and if he has the appropriate rating.

 

[eddie]

Yes now that we have heard the whole story its very hard to speculate as to the actual cause.It will be interesting to

know the cause.

 

[Kolibri]

their system prevents problems with torque on the takeoff roll by forcing the disengagement of the pre-rotator before bringing the cyclic back.

That's not the reason for their technique.
Their driveshaft U-joint can't take prerotation with the cyclic back.
So, the takeoff roll is necessarily lengthened.

Those with a flex shaft haven't this limitation.
And, I've not found the concurrent torque to be any issue.

Regards,
Kolibri