PRA Mentone - MTOsport

Damn ! I am sorry to see this, I hope he is fine.

Takeoff ? Landing ? Prerotate ? Taxi ? Passenger ?

I hope the damage is minimal & he gets back in the air quickly.
 
Your FAA ASIAS summary describes it as a "hard landing" - Mtosport N571UJ
 
Best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery. Michiganders are tough. He'll be back. You know, they make motorcycle-trikes now with two wheels up front. Heard it makes them less roll happy. I like 4 wheels better than 3, even though it adds a lot of weight. Damn, it was a pretty gyro too.
 
"“There is no problem handling a gyro with hard liked nosewheel once the proper reflexes have been acquired.”"

A corollary: There is no problem riding a unicycle once the proper reflexes have been acquired.
 
This was at Mentone and the pilot broke and arm compound fracture. Lucky that was all. I heard he flaired hi and bounced. Then on the second bounce let the nose wheel hit cocked and layed it over. I was however not there so i am only reporting what i was told.
 
The nose wheel is only there for taxiing, not for landing.
Hold it off the ground for as long as possible.
You will be nearly stopped before it will settle.

Watch the Bounced Landing at 2:00 in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKrk1YvgLtg

OnePointLanding.jpg

I wonder if he knew how close he came to rolling it.
The slickness of grass likely helped a lot.

Excessive weight on the nosewheel is a lot like entering a wheelbarrow race.
The winner is usually the only one that doesn't dump it!
 
Humans are adaptable critters; with enough practice and repetition, they can acquire the reflexes to do most anything.

But why risk destroying a $100K toy until the reflex of holding the nosewheel off the ground is acquired so long as there’s rudder deflection when a free castering nosewheel and differential brake steering eliminates the need for that particular reflex?

I’ve allowed numerous people fly my gyro with differential brake steering, including the editor of the French UL magazine VolMoteur and every Japanese visitor to Bensen Days that wished to do so and not one person came close to rolling it over or had difficulty with ground handling.
*****************
Here’s a clip of Pier Luigi, an Italian visitor to Bensen Days in 1994 taking his first flight in my gyro. Obviously not a novice.

The differential brake pegs are designed to be heel brakes but most people taking a first flight drop their feet down and use them as toe brakes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqogAadBzKw
 
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I've flown gyros with linked nose wheels and gyros with castering nose and differential braking (ArrowCopter). Both have their benefits. There have been times with each where I wished I had the other, but more often than not I appreciate the linked nose steering.

I often fly into larger airports with long taxi requirements. On hot Texas days with the light weight braking systems common to gyros, I've experienced diminished braking power due to over heating. Unlike a steerable nose wheel, you have to ride the brakes to steer or taxi at unsafe speeds to leverage the rudder. On more than one occasion I had to stop and tell ground that I needed to let the brakes cool before continuing. On the plus side for differential braking I could turn 180 on any taxi way. With linked nose you have a limited radius so have to plan ahead.

Ive never experienced an issue with landing linked nose since I was taught to land on the mains with the nose up until stopped.
 
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I find it humorous to see the same discussions in the gyro world that were once prevalent in the fixed wing world. Free-castering vs steerable nose wheel is one of these issues. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, and pilots learn to deal with both of them. For the most part I find that the pilots with the most experience understand this and move on.
 
magknight;n1122998 said:
I've flown gyros with linked nose wheels and gyros with castering nose and differential braking (ArrowCopter). Both have their benefits. There have been times with each where I wished I had the other, but more often than not I appreciate the linked nose steering.

I often fly into larger airports with long taxi requirements. On hot Texas days with the light weight braking systems common to gyros, I've experienced diminished braking power due to over heating. Unlike a steerable nose wheel, you have to ride the brakes to steer or taxi at unsafe speeds to leverage the rudder. On more than one occasion I had to stop and tell ground that I needed to let the brakes cool before continuing. On the plus side for differential braking I could turn 180 on any taxi way. With linked nose you have a limited radius so have to plan ahead.

Ive never experienced an issue with landing linked nose since I was taught to land on the mains with the nose up until stopped.

You should never have a long taxi in a gyro if you are an experienced pilot. Get used to requesting from the tower to land at a specific point VERY close to where you want to end up stopping. An example a few years ago I led 6 gyros, only two having radios to KVCV airport that had a 15,000 foot runway, along with a mile extra taxi to the FBO. Being an x-military base it has a huge ramp area. As the lead aircraft, I requested by radio to the Control Tower a direct landing for all gyros to the ramp, 200 feet from the FBO (I had called the tower one hour ahead to clear the gyros to land that had no radios). Control Tower approved us all to land, and later take off from the ramp area as a group. Another towered airport I regularly used , I landed directly to the fueling area if no one was walking around, or on a helipad at other towered airports. I took off from taxiway intersections all the time, and rarely used a runway at busy towered airports. You just have to ask the tower for a taxiway/ramp departure (obviously if safe), and save your tires and brakes for another flying day. In 1000+ hours of gyro flying, I went thru one set of tires(mostly in the beginning learning phase) and was still on original brake pads. Remember gyros should avoid mixing with fixed wing traffic, and using a busy airports runway is avoidable and unnecessary with pilot experience. If you don't ask the tower for what you want to do, you will never know the answer. If you are concerned what they will tell you (or the first time doing something unusual), call the airports control tower ahead of time and advise them and discuss where exactly you would like to land. I have never, ever, not once, been turned down by radio any special landing location request I have made in a gyro., If the landing spot is out of the visual sight of the tower, they will sometimes add the verbal warning, "landing is at your own risk" . ...just like every landing .....LOL.

As far as nose wheels, I have flown both types, and hands down I like castering nose wheels much better, especially in cross wind situations, and the ability to pivot 180/360 on a rear wheel when ground maneuvering and checking for traffic before taking off.
 
I, too, have flown quite extensively in both kinds of gyros: with and without castering nosewheel. I prefer the castoring type because of manoeuverability on the ground and a higher level of safety in cross wind landing situations. I agree with Jason in that an overheated break will render steering on the ground ineffective with differential breaks. However, that shouldn't really happen because (a) I minimize long taxi distances, just like Scott does, by landing close to where I want to turn off. And (b) if there is any kind of appreciable wind I use the rudder to keep the nose pointed straight instead of the breaks. On tailwinds, don't forget that the rudder functions in reverse!

I once had a problem with my MT03. I was in Croatia, taking off from a big airport (Rijeka, LDRI). It was a hot day and I needed to taxi from parking to the hold short line, which already is about half a mile. Then I made the mistake and did a backtrack on the runway to use the full length when I could have easily made an intersection take-off. To speed things up I was rolling along at a brisk pace, further pushed along by the tail wind. The backtrack was about another half mile, and because of the tailwind I needed a touch of breaks from time to time to keep me from speeding up too much. Nearing the end of the runway I wanted to stop and turn around. I squeezed the break lever but nothing happened!! I could, of course, still steer (remember, MT03's had hard linked nose wheels) but couldn't slow down. It was kind of embarassing to have to overshoot the pavement and continue onto the grass. It must have looked real stupid from the tower but they kept mum about it. The grass did slow me down so that I could safely turn around and get onto the tarmac. Prerotating with an ineffective break was also a bit challenging when you don't expect it and everbody is watching you to see how this strange contraption is going to break ground. The problem was a hot break, and hot stainless steel break disks just don't work very well at all.

Greetings, -- Chris.
 
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The NTSB has now published its Factual Report - the summary states

"On August 3, 2017,
about 0917 central daylight time, a Hake MTO Sport gyroplane, N571UJ,
was substantially damaged when it tipped over on landing at Mentone Airport (C92), Mentone,
Indiana. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The personal
flight was being conducted under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91
without a flight plan. The pilot sustained minor injuries. The local flight originated about 0930.
According to the pilot's accident report, when he touched down on the main landing gear, he
applied "moderate" right rudder to maintain runway alignment and to avoid slipping. He
stated he should have raised the nose to reduce airspeed, but instead he lowered the nose and
struck the runway. The pilot explained that on this particular gyroplane, the nose wheel and
rudder are interconnected; that is, the nose wheel does not pivot on a caster. When the
gyroplane touched down, it 'jerked" abruptly to the right and tipped over. The pilot concluded,
"This accident was the result of pilot error. There was no malfunction [of the gyroplane, flight
controls, or engine]."
 
I was at Mentone, but did not see the roll-over; I was at the hanger building. The winds and weather that week were different to say the least. Most days would start with using the runway in one direction and then switch to the other direction. Sometimes several times in the same day. However, during the Pilots briefing, it was always stated to let the AirBoss know if it needed to be changed, or if you desired something different, like landing on the grass runway.
When the roll over occurred, I stepped out and noticed the wind had changed directions and the wind sock was indicating the wind was more out of the south. If that was the case, then he was making a down-wind landing. Lets be real, at that stage of the landing, none of us are looking at instruments and it is all by feel and visual. He likely set up the landing and was expecting to settle onto the mains based upon his perceived ground speed. The ground speed would have been higher because of the downwind component. At the point he had insufficient airspeed the gyro would have transitioned into the a much greater rate of descent. Similar to a fixed wing stalling. This leading into a very hard landing, add the crosswind component and he would have been cross controlled adding the rudder deflection. A steerable nosewheel coming in contact with the runway would cause the nose to dart into the deflected direction. This causing the machine to abruptly move to that direction and into a roll over.
Down wind landings can be a handful even for a hightime experienced Pilot. It takes hundreds of hours before a Pilot can "feel" the rotor and be able to recognize what it is telling him/her. We are so used to a very low groundspeed upon landing, a downwind landing seems like we are coming in "Smokin' Hot"; and yes, you do have to settle on a higher groundspeed and just use the rotor energy to hold that nosewheel off as long as possible, and making sure the nosewheel is lined up prior to contact.
Bottomline:
If it don't "feel" right, ABORT and GO AROUND.
 
Uncle Willie;n1122978 said:
The nose wheel is only there for taxiing, not for landing.
Hold it off the ground for as long as possible.
You will be nearly stopped before it will settle.

Watch the Bounced Landing at 2:00 in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKrk1YvgLtg



I wonder if he knew how close he came to rolling it.
The slickness of grass likely helped a lot.

Excessive weight on the nosewheel is a lot like entering a wheelbarrow race.
The winner is usually the only one that doesn't dump it!

Watching those landings I find that actually very few of those pilots touch down at minimum sustainable airspeed. A bad idea when landing on a rough grass strip as you in crease the danger of bouncing or rolling over.

-- Chris.
 
I do not like the fact that these Eurotubs have no tail wheel. Bad design.

It leads to training pilots in these gyro types to avoid a tail wheel landing and the pulling back of the stick immediately and fully upon touching down - which in all respects is the best way to land a gyro since it immediately terminates forward roll.

In other words, these Eurotub gyros force pilots to increase their chances of rollover landings by design elimination of this simplest of all safety tools.

Further, tail wheel landings can absolutely help straighten out the gyro so that yaw and crab are corrected before the mains ever touch the ground.

My training in a tail wheeled Sno Bird was enforced rigidly as, "Short-as-possible, pull back the stick and hit the tail if you want to - but whatever you do STOP ASAP after you're on the ground!" (None of this FW-style landing BS like the "tail wheel impaired" Eurotubs force upon the pilot.)

Eurotub designers: Get over yourselves and put a wheel under the keel, then tell your trainers it's OK to teach the students to stand it on its butt when you land it.
 
Eurotubs?? I own an ELA, and it has a tailwheel... I try not to hit the ground with the tail when landing, but in case I do, the wheel is there...
 
I like having a tail wheel but I never found it more difficult to teach primary students to land in a Cavalon or MTO sport because it doesn't have a tail wheel.

I was taught to have the aircraft aligned with the direction of flight before touching down by progressively using the rudder as the speed is reduced. I feel using the tail wheel to pull the aircraft into alignment reduces options and puts the gyroplane closer to a mishap from gusts.

I was taught to get the disk flat as soon as practical after touch down particularly in gusting conditions to avoid getting lifted back into the air or the potential for getting blown over because the rotor is still producing lift.

In all of the gyroplanes I have flown the rotor will hit the empennage in the full back position as the rotor slows so I teach people to get the cyclic full forward as soon as they have set the nose wheel down and they are stopped.

I prefer a free castering nose wheel and at anything over about seven knots of indicated air speed I can steer her with the rudder. I taxi about a mile from my hangar to the run up area and often have more than a ten knot tail wind. I have not had the brakes fade on The Predator despite its differential braking for steering.

The Cavalon had linked steering and I would sometimes have to cool the brakes because between the tail wind and the high idle I had to ride the brakes.

I have found as long as the pilot stays loose on the pedals; a hard linked nose wheel is not a problem in a cross wind landing even if they drop the nose wheel before they are stopped. The trouble is if the landing isn’t going well a new pilot may tense up on the pedals and if they touch the nose down prematurely in a cross wind the nose wheel is pointed the wrong way and locked in position by their tensed up legs. Because of this I prefer a soft linked nose wheel to a hard linked nose wheel.

In short I feel the imported gyroplanes are pretty well designed as long as the pilot knows how to fly them. Touching down at high speeds is purely poor piloting technique and not at all a part of design limitations.
 
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