Gyroplane approach and landing speeds flying gusts and turbulence

All_In

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Apr 21, 2008
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Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Airgyro AG915 Centurian, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Gyroplane 70Hrs, not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
I've not flown a gyroplane in moderate++ turbulence or gusts of any significance.
Nor have I thought of asking if gyro's are flown the same as FW on turbulent gusting landings as I never thought of flying under those conditions but weather comes up and I'd like to know gyroplane procedures before it happens.

Flying light weight FW's at close to full gross I always increase my airspeed by 50% of the winds gust speed and only use 10% flaps and land as close to the numbers as possible for the most runway and plan for a longer landing with a higher airspeed for flare and round out with a flatter floating approach once over the runway.

This procedure allows me to have much more control of the aircraft even if the gust is from behind and steals my airspeed and changes my angle of attack I can fly through it and will never stall... Well so far..

In FW I aggressively man handle the stick/yoke & rudder to try and keep the wing down before it change my angle of attack or attitude.

I abort the landing if I hit either rudder stop or if I cannot hold the center line and go around.

I know if I moved the controls of a gyroplane as aggressively as a FW I would be all over the sky. We have so much more control and it's gentle move in comparison to a FW... You move the blades just a little and the blades fly you there.

Assuming the worst case possible full gross, turbulence and180 degree gusts where they could be coming from behind you in some portion of the pattern.

The question is do you add airspeed on your gyro approaches if so is it the same 50% of the gust speed? Or no increase or other %?
Is there any other procedure you do on turbulent gusting approaches?
 
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All_In;n1120308 said:
The question is do you add airspeed on your gyro approaches if so is it the same 50% of the gust speed? Or no increase or other %?
Is there any other procedure you do on turbulent gusting approaches?

I don't add airspeed on final, but I'll carry power all the way to touch down in gusty conditions. I once fell out of the sky from about 5' in gusty winds with the throttle at idle, I was able to fly out of the bounce but it wasn't pretty. John, I do find myself throwing the cyclic around at very slow/behind the power curve speeds, just before touch down in both FW and gyros.
 
All_In;n1120308 said:
I've not flown a gyroplane in moderate++ turbulence or gusts of any significance.
Nor have I thought of asking if gyro's are flown the same as FW on turbulent gusting landings as I never thought of flying under those conditions but weather comes up and I'd like to know gyroplane procedures before it happens.

Flying light weight FW's at close to full gross I always increase my airspeed by 50% of the winds gust speed and only use 10% flaps and land as close to the numbers as possible for the most runway and plan for a longer landing with a higher airspeed for flare and round out with a flatter floating approach once over the runway.

This procedure allows me to have much more control of the aircraft even if the gust is from behind and steals my airspeed and changes my angle of attack I can fly through it and will never stall... Well so far..

In FW I aggressively man handle the stick/yoke & rudder to try and keep the wing down before it change my angle of attack or attitude.

I abort the landing if I hit either rudder stop or if I cannot hold the center line and go around.

I know if I moved the controls of a gyroplane as aggressively as a FW I would be all over the sky. We have so much more control and it's gentle move in comparison to a FW... You move the blades just a little and the blades fly you there.

Assuming the worst case possible full gross, turbulence and180 degree gusts where they could be coming from behind you in some portion of the pattern.

The question is do you add airspeed on your gyro approaches if so is it the same 50% of the gust speed? Or no increase or other %?
Is there any other procedure you do on turbulent gusting approaches?

It depends a lot on the gyroplane John.

The less rudder authority the more power I leave in. Landing with power on can lead to other challenges.

A little more speed on descent to land to deal with the gusts may be helpful under some conditions and in some gyroplanes. Fifty percent of the gust spread may be a good place to start.

In my experience each gusty landing is different and it is best to adjust for specific conditions and the aircraft.

I built up to gusting conditions slowly and went somewhere else to land if the gust spread got over my limit. Mine is ten knots with a 30 degree divergence on wind direction.

The better I know the airport the better I am able to deal with strong winds and turbulence on landing.

I land near a wind sock so that I know what the wind is doing there.

I feel landing with a tail wind should be avoided in a gyroplane and I prefer to land into the wind.

I like to get the disk forward as soon as I reach taxi speed after touch down.

In really strong gusty winds I stop and let the rotor slow down before moving.

In some of the gyroplanes I have flown; as the rotor gets slow in gusty conditions it wants to diverge and I pay a lot of attention to the rotor tip path through my field of vision and work at staying ahead of it keeping it level and straight across my field of vision.

I feel gyroplane flight instruction has value and reading about it is a poor substitute for hands on experience. Even a one on one explanation is better than reading about it. I have no way to imagine how someone will interpret the written word or what gyroplane they will be flying.

I am off to Redlands.
 
180 degree gusts in turbulence????
Land somewhere else.
 
Stan V;n1120313 said:
I don't add airspeed on final, but I'll carry power all the way to touch down in gusty conditions. I once fell out of the sky from about 5' in gusty winds with the throttle at idle, I was able to fly out of the bounce but it wasn't pretty. John, I do find myself throwing the cyclic around at very slow/behind the power curve speeds, just before touch down in both FW and gyros.
This is very informative Bro! Not to fall out of the sky at low approach speeds is why I add airspeed on gusty landings so that doesn't happen.
I can understand flying a gyro under power to touch down in gusty conditions to keep control just in case.
Thank you!
 
Vance;n1120314 said:
It depends a lot on the gyroplane John.

The less rudder authority the more power I leave in. Landing with power on can lead to other challenges.

A little more speed on descent to land to deal with the gusts may be helpful under some conditions and in some gyroplanes. Fifty percent of the gust spread may be a good place to start.

In my experience each gusty landing is different and it is best to adjust for specific conditions and the aircraft.

I built up to gusting conditions slowly and went somewhere else to land if the gust spread got over my limit. Mine is ten knots with a 30 degree divergence on wind direction.

The better I know the airport the better I am able to deal with strong winds and turbulence on landing.

I land near a wind sock so that I know what the wind is doing there.

I feel landing with a tail wind should be avoided in a gyroplane and I prefer to land into the wind.

I like to get the disk forward as soon as I reach taxi speed after touch down.

In really strong gusty winds I stop and let the rotor slow down before moving.

In some of the gyroplanes I have flown; as the rotor gets slow in gusty conditions it wants to diverge and I pay a lot of attention to the rotor tip path through my field of vision and work at staying ahead of it keeping it level and straight across my field of vision.

I feel gyroplane flight instruction has value and reading about it is a poor substitute for hands on experience. Even a one on one explanation is better than reading about it. I have no way to imagine how someone will interpret the written word or what gyroplane they will be flying.

I am off to Redlands.
This is most excellent, exactly what I was hoping to learn.
I agree about the written word Bro however it's important to have a written explanation for those who use the left side of the brain because they learn best from reading as described in the FAA CFI Handbook.
I was tested as mostly left side but seems, like many others, I use the right side just about as much to learn or solve problems.Like many others we can learn from any of the methods, written, visual, audio, and hands on.
However when overwhelmed learning NEW difficult procedures the left side takes over in emergencies.

I believe that for me if I build a theoretical foundation by reading about it first, then watching and listing to a video, then by hands on demonstration and asking questions of the instructor then I learn in about 1/10th of the class time it takes other people to learn using just ONE class and ONE instructors explanation.

Teachers have always said I'm a fast learner and that I ask questions that are beyond the scope of the class.
NO!!! I read 4 books on the subject and watched every video I could find before I ever showed up to the class or asked my first question and I learned so much more than one class or instructor could ever teach.. The questions I have remaining the teacher does not know the answers either all the rest was in the books and videos and the class is often redundant. College was this way for me too! Tests are always EASY and almost always the first person finished. At first this worried me as how could I finish in 1/2 the time the others are taking... what did I miss.

That's why I ask for the written word before I ever hear the verbal explanation, 99% of the time it only confirms what I learned from written and video and there are no questions!
 
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WaspAir;n1120342 said:
180 degree gusts in turbulence????
Land somewhere else.
Yaw Mon.
I do have concerns as I've experience thousands of hours of weather in San Diego we get 45kts with gusts Santa Anna's and much of the time there is little real warning.
In Patches "FW" I have 5 1/2 hours of fuel.

That's often too long for passengers to fly so 99.9% of the time I land at the 1/2 way point with enough fuel to go back to my last good airport and then some usually.

But my gyro only has about 2 hours of fuel at best?

What happens when I come over the little 6K foot hills from the sand dunes and the Santa Anna's kick up with 45 min's of fuel left an no airports around without Santa Anna's that I can get too?

I better learn and train for the procedure just in case. I know I don't want to be asking myself; now what do I do in actual!!! Hehehe,,, hey that's not funny!
 
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WaspAir;n1120342 said:
180 degree gusts in turbulence????
Land somewhere else.

Yeah I'd do a 360 and get out of there.
 
All_In;n1120349 said:
But my gyro only has about 2 hours of fuel at best?

What happens when I come over the little 6K foot hills from the sand dunes and the Santa Anna's kick up with 45 min's of fuel left an no airports around without Santa Anna's that I can get too?

I better learn and train for the procedure just in case.

If 45 min of reserve won't get you to an acceptable alternate, then you've chosen the wrong aircraft for the mission.
I see this as a matter of pre-flight planning more than a procedure to be trained. Nobody thrills the crowd at an airshow with their pre-flight planning skills, but it's more critical to survival than the maneuver skills one usually sees displayed.
If 180 degree gusts are really in the offing, think about the airliners that have been brought down by wind shear despite professional crews and huge performance margins, and take the gyro elsewhere.
Gusts are often a local issue, dependent upon nearby terrain, and a different pattern may exist quite close by; even an off-field landing with better winds might well be safer than following an obsession with landing at a particular airport that is temporarily unsuitable.
 
Hi Jon
All good advice and I did think of landing off airport and searched for a few canyon fields that, should, block the prevailing winds with flat land or dirt roads where I might be able to land off airport = .Found 3!

Actually what this thread is a future pre-flight planing for the worst event possible, alternate airport and zones with the route and bail out points pre-planned 6 months in advance of the flight.

I always check weather Jon the day before my flights.
I check right before I fly again and have canceled many flights during my pre-flight planning.
That would work 100% of the time, as you suggest, if the weather service got the forecast correct 100% of the time.

However the weather service told me that they feel they are doing the best they can forecasting correctly 50% of the time.

That could still get me in trouble 50% of the time. Seems for insurance and peace of mind it would be good to learn the procedures and find alternative off airport roads to at least have the best chance of survival if weather ever does a instant nasty. At least I've tried to learn the best procedures and found alternative off airport landing zones before ever flying that route.

And I will listen to ATIS the entire time once I hear it's gone bad I can turn around and easily go back over the hill and do a vertical decent 5,000 feet + to the airports below.
The only time I should never get caught is when it come up and I've already flown over an hour. I calculated I need to get back over the mountains if I use my reserve it means I can still turn back if I've not flown more than 1 hour and have 1 hour to get back with no reserve.

Cause I'm going to fly over and play with My motorcycle, and sand buggy bros in the desert and I have to fly over the little 6k hills for about and hour and 1/2.

I've already found a route it longer but has landing zones I should be able to make if I hold at least two K above the ground with a 3 to 1 glide slope.
I do not have to hold 2K above the top of the mountains because on the desert side it a vertical cliff almost all the way to the desert and turn 180 and descend back to the airport by gliding that way.
But I do like to be at least 2k over mountains because of mountains waves and down drafts on the desert side but there is a pass where I can hold 1.5K and still bail out to the desert and easily make it to Borrego or Ocotillo airports or the private airport where I know friends with homes on the airport..
 
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Cammie Patch;n1120356 said:
Yeah I'd do a 360 and get out of there.
Yes me too, if I can fly any other way that is exactly what I will always do first!

But for the one time when none of the other fields work either thought I should learn turbulent landing procedures for gyroplanes as the same as I leaned them for FWs for the same reasons and I've had to use them 10 or 20 times over the last 30+ years on FW and so glad I've mastered them in FW aircraft and only get compliments from the towers on those landings.
 
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Why I asked?
I was pre-planing the flight? I had it all figured out no problems.

Then I ask what else could go wrong? Santa Ana turbulence and 2 hour range could go wrong at least here locally and I did not have a plan for it so added local off-airport zones and calculated my bail out points with that in mind because no one in their right mind flies into to that on purpose. However I understand your perspective and agree I do not think the same way as most; and so not of the right mind; compared to normal people.

That is when I realized I have never been trained or even read about gyroplane turbulence with gusts landing procedures and wondered if they were the same as FW.

I hope I never have to use the knowledge but I do wish to learn it just in case.

PS:
Of all the local airport, mine, KSEE is in El Cajon which means "The Box" in Spanish. It's in a box canyon so of all the local airports its the best protected. Yet there are RARE days I cannot fly in or out if I do not have too!
 
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