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  • Taildragger Pusher Concept

    Hi Everyone,
    I had some time to myself this past weekend and built a model of a design I've been noodling for a little while now. I may be a gluten for punishment, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. Pictures are attached. Is this design plausible, or am I creating a death machine if I take this idea any further?

    1 inch equals ~1 foot
    27' rotor, 60" prop
    Landing Gear would have suspension, so the front would sit a bit lower.
    The size estimate for the engine and prop height/location could probably use some tweaking.
    I'm worried about the thrust vector with regards to the center mass.
    Yes, those are water bottle cap wheels.

    Thanks for your time!
    You can spend your whole life waiting for that mountain to move, but it's waiting on you.....you gotta make it move. -Jonny Lang

  • #2
    Just sayin' :

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    • #3
      No reason to re-invent the wheel. The Buhl company built a pusher taildragger autogyro under license from Cierva in the early 1930's. There's an original Buhl pusher in a museum, possibly in California(?) Lots of photos on the 'Net.

      Note that the pilot area of the Buhl is located quite high with the tailwheel down; a necessity to put the CG where it belongs along the aircraft's vertical axis, while still providing prop clearance. Also note the huge H-stab, located in the propwash.

      Recent experiences with taildragger gyros demonstrate that gyros are especially prone to ground-looping when the tailwheel is down, perhaps because the rotor can amplify the taildragger's usual tendency to capsize.

      Taildraggers do have a certain charm, though.

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      • #4
        Great points! I still have a lot to learn. Thank you!
        You can spend your whole life waiting for that mountain to move, but it's waiting on you.....you gotta make it move. -Jonny Lang

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        • #5
          The Buhl is on display at the Hiller museum in San Carlos, CA (San Francisco Bay region).
          Click image for larger version

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          Attached Files

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          • #6
            There is or was a pusher taildragger flying in Australia, I seem to remember a thread where the builder/pilot described his experiences but I can't locate it at the moment.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Alan_Cheatham View Post
              There is or was a pusher taildragger flying in Australia, I seem to remember a thread where the builder/pilot described his experiences but I can't locate it at the moment.
              That's interesting. Is there a horizontal stabilizer?

              You guys are a wealth of knowledge. I really appreciate it!
              You can spend your whole life waiting for that mountain to move, but it's waiting on you.....you gotta make it move. -Jonny Lang

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              • #8
                Hmmm?
                Almost looks like an artists rendition of a Kolb Firefly, removed the fixed wing and built a tower for the rotor?
                David McCutchen
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Southern_Tier View Post
                  Hi Everyone,
                  I had some time to myself this past weekend and built a model of a design I've been noodling for a little while now. I may be a gluten for punishment, but I'd be interested in your thoughts. Pictures are attached. Is this design plausible, or am I creating a death machine if I take this idea any further?
                  Your plane will fall on the nose when the pilot is on board. You must advance the wheels

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I see a potential problem issue with the mock up design in that the taildragger layout gives you room for the biggest prop if it's a puller, but with the straight rear keel and pusher config, you get the more difficult ground handling of the taildragger and a relatively smaller, less efficient prop size.

                    I don't think I've ever seen a gyro with such a long rear keel that the tailplane is fully behind it, except possibly the Phenix, the one that could deploy a parachute from the tailplane/tailboom. It would have enormous horizontal stab and rudder authority that far back.
                    "Nothing screams poor workmanship like wrinkles in the duct tape!"
                    All opinions are my own, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Feel free to correct me if I am.
                    PRA# 40294

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                    • #11
                      Thanks for all of your responses. This model was something I think I needed to get out of my system, and your feedback has given me a better understanding of how these aircraft are set up.
                      You can spend your whole life waiting for that mountain to move, but it's waiting on you.....you gotta make it move. -Jonny Lang

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                      • #12
                        Go fly a taildragger airplane, they are a blast, but the biggest advantage is off airport operations (better prop ground clearance, no weak nose gear). The big disadvantage is instability on the ground (think about pushing a grocery cart in reverse, it wants to spin around because the center of gravity is behind the "main gear"). With your design, I see taildragger challenges, but the biggest I'd think would be limiting the flair due to the long straight keel. I can't see any upside to the design, just doesn't seem necessary. What are you trying to accomplish with it (other than just having fun with new designs, which I understand)?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by magknight View Post
                          Go fly a taildragger airplane, they are a blast, but the biggest advantage is off airport operations (better prop ground clearance, no weak nose gear). The big disadvantage is instability on the ground (think about pushing a grocery cart in reverse, it wants to spin around because the center of gravity is behind the "main gear"). With your design, I see taildragger challenges, but the biggest I'd think would be limiting the flair due to the long straight keel. I can't see any upside to the design, just doesn't seem necessary. What are you trying to accomplish with it (other than just having fun with new designs, which I understand)?
                          I think a lot of it was mid-winter boredom. Since I really haven't come across a taildragger pusher gyro in the research I've been doing over the past couple of months, I was curious to see what one would look like and if it was practical or not. I'm aware of the taildragger's advantages off airport, and I think I wanted to see if the features of that aircraft could be applied to gyro, even though they didn't necessarily serve the same purpose in my model. I'm currently trying to figure out what gyroplane to start with and I'm all over the place. Ultimately, I think the gyro I decide to go with will operate off of a grass field most of the time, so I'd like the aircraft to be able to manage those kind of surface conditions. I have a wish list regarding what I want, but I haven't found anything that covers everything.

                          Truthfully, I really have no idea what I'm talking about yet. I really only started getting into gyro/actually pursuing aviation back at the end of November. At the time, I was intending on finding a gyro CFI mid to late summer 2019 and starting then. Just before Christmas, my wife and I found out we have another daughter on the way (our second and due mid summer). We're really excited about that, but remembering the state of mind I was in after the first one, I figured learning how to fly might be better in 2020. So for now I'm studying light sport cert ground school material, reading the FAA-H-8083-21 and indulging my sense of curiosity and creativity in the theory of gyro aviation.

                          When I originally posted the model, I was nervous as to the kinds of responses I'd get. I have to say, I'm thrilled with the feedback I got. All great responses with good explanation as why the design is dangerous, or won't work. I've been on several other forums in the past and I have to say, members here should be proud of this community.
                          You can spend your whole life waiting for that mountain to move, but it's waiting on you.....you gotta make it move. -Jonny Lang

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                          • #14
                            I feel getting some flight instruction in a gyroplane would help you to better imagine your want list.

                            I found when I learned to fly a gyroplane what I imagined would be the most fun wasn'
                            t and things I never imagined gave me great joy.
                            Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

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                            • #15
                              Years back there was another build thread where someone experimented with a pusher taildragger, eventually converting to a tricycle gear after experiencing issues.

                              I'm pretty good at finding old threads on the forum but after hours of searching I've come up empty handed having to revert to pictures I saved to my computer years ago. It makes me wonder if there are gaps in the forums archives.

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