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  • #16
    If you imagine you would not make these errors in my opinion you are being dishonest with yourself and missing a learning opportunity.
    I would not have made those errors. Neither would you have, because you clearly called out what you would have done that they did not.

    . . . and will not be sidetracked by your desire to make others appear wrong.
    There are links of this accident chain that I would have done differently; that does not make me right or the accident pilot wrong.
    Oh, so they were not wrong?
    And you'd have made their same mistakes? C'mon.

    You pointed out their errors, and implied that you wouldn't have made them. Fine. I agreed.
    I wouldn't have made them either. Perhaps others, but not those.

    If you're going to be critical and judge, then at least don't try to allege that it's something else than that.



    In my opinion your unwillingness to recognize your own poor decisions makes it harder for you to learn and grow.

    I feel imagining you would never do anything that stupid and you have the skills to make every emergency landing work out limits your ability to learn from accident reports and your own experiences.
    Vance, feel free to quote me on such an attitude, or even point out a fair implication of such.
    I have indeed made poor decisions. We all have. I try to scrupulously learn from mine, with personal after-action accounts that I write for myself.

    Once, only a few miles away from an airport with <1000' ceilings on an SVFR approach, the overcast quickly lowered and began to shrink about me.
    I had only a couple of minutes to pick out a pasture below me that hadn't cattle, was long enough to land and takeoff from, and oriented favorably towards the wind.
    I found one, drug the field at 200', and then landed. This was in a FW. An hour later, ceilings had lifted enough for me to takeoff and land at the nearby airport.
    I wrote a report about it later for myself. I did many things right (primarily keeping my cool, and greasing a near-stall landing), and a few things wrong (such as chancing a SVFR approach).

    So, you're welcome to FINALLY cease imagining what I think, and stop projecting on to me thought processes I don't have.


    Thanks,
    Kolibri



    PP - ASEL complex (Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, SC2), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

    Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

    "
    When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
      I would not have made those errors. Neither would you have, because you clearly called out what you would have done that they did not.


      Oh, so they were not wrong?
      And you'd have made their same mistakes? C'mon.

      You pointed out their errors, and implied that you wouldn't have made them. Fine. I agreed.
      I wouldn't have made them either. Perhaps others, but not those.

      If you're going to be critical and judge, then at least don't try to allege that it's something else than that.




      Vance, feel free to quote me on such an attitude, or even point out a fair implication of such.
      I have indeed made poor decisions. We all have. I try to scrupulously learn from mine, with personal after-action accounts that I write for myself.

      Once, only a few miles away from an airport with <1000' ceilings on an SVFR approach, the overcast quickly lowered and began to shrink about me.
      I had only a couple of minutes to pick out a pasture below me that hadn't cattle, was long enough to land and takeoff from, and oriented favorably towards the wind.
      I found one, drug the field at 200', and then landed. This was in a FW. An hour later, ceilings had lifted enough for me to takeoff and land at the nearby airport.
      I wrote a report about it later for myself. I did many things right (primarily keeping my cool, and greasing a near-stall landing), and a few things wrong (such as chancing a SVFR approach).

      So, you're welcome to FINALLY cease imagining what I think, and stop projecting on to me thought processes I don't have.


      Thanks,
      Kolibri


      I have no desire to discuss this further with you.

      I am not interested in what you imagined I wrote and I feel your attitude prevents you from learning so there is no point in continuing.
      Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

      Comment


      • #18
        At 500 feet agl I can glide 1,500 feet to find a suitable emergency landing zone.
        The runway at OXV is 75 feet wide and 4,000 feet long.
        There are lots of open fields at the departure end of runway 15.
        https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2984.../data=!3m1!1e3

        Click image for larger version  Name:	OVX.png Views:	1 Size:	372.1 KB ID:	1134942



        Please understand I . . . am not being critical of the pilots decisions.
        So, posting a link to GoogleMaps of OXV and mentioning that "there are lots of open fields at the departure end of runway 15"
        is an example of "not being critical of the pilots decisions"? Yeah, sure.


        _________
        I have no desire to discuss this further with you.
        I am not interested in what you imagined I wrote and I feel your attitude prevents you from learning so there is no point in continuing.
        Great, suits me!

        Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities
        (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.
        Last edited by Kolibri; 06-27-2018, 06:58 AM.
        PP - ASEL complex (Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, SC2), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

        Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

        "
        When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

        Comment


        • #19
          The pilot taxied to the end of the runway and did a full-length departure. He stated that the
          taxi, runup, takeoff, and climb to 500 ft above ground level (agl) were normal. The engine was
          running fine. He had planned to climb to 1,000 ft agl, circle around, and come back to the
          airport. However, while continuing to climb through about 500 ft agl, the gyroplane stopped
          climbing and started to descend. He didn't remember hearing any change to the sound of the
          engine and he thought the engine was still running, but he was aware that the gyroplane wasn't
          climbing anymore. He checked the altimeter and confirmed that they were in a descent. He
          started to turn back to the airport but realized he couldn't make it back and tried to land in a
          field. He saw that he would not clear the powerlines, so he turned sharply, but the gyroplane
          hit the powerline and crashed on the side of the ditch. He turned the engine and fuel off and he
          and the passenger climbed out the aircraft. A small grass fire had started in the ditch by the
          fallen powerline about 20 yards from the gyroplane and it was quickly extinguished; it did not
          affect the gyroplane wreckage.

          The pilot rated passenger reported that the takeoff was uneventful. He stated that during the
          initial climb [i.e., from 500' AGL to 1000'], he heard a change in the sound of the engine, like a decrease in engine RPMs. The
          pilot told him that they were losing power as he was attempting to troubleshoot the problem.
          The pilot turned to an open field to the right side of the gyroplane but was unable to avoid
          hitting the powerline. He reported that it was about 10 to 15 seconds from the time of the loss
          of power until impact.
          The accident site was located about 800 ft south of the departure end of
          runway 15.

          https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...Final&IType=LA
          I realize that time estimation under stress can be inaccurate, but to have crashed from 500' AGL in 10-15 seconds
          means a descent of 2000-3000fpm. A power-off descent in level attitude would be around 1100fpm, so they apparently
          had some downward pitch.

          They probably wish they'd stayed in the pattern vs. flying south of the runway. An emergency landing from 500' AGL pattern
          would have likely been mostly drama free. Whenever I do any significant work on my gyro, my initial flying is several laps
          around the pattern just in case anything feels weird or quits on me.

          Once, I'd installed the carb throttle return spring in the wrong location from memory (and was suspicious of it), and it stuck on WOT
          after takeoff. I realized at once why, set up for a short final, and killed power for my first unplanned dead-stick landing. (Another
          way to have handled it was to descend with excessive pitch, hanging on the prop until touchdown, and then killing power.)

          An early CFI had me do a power-off spiraling descent over the runway from about 1000' AGL, and then land. Very instructive.
          I.e., in a gyro one can land within a very small footprint from directly above, if necessary. Coming from FW, it's a different sensation.

          Anyway, I'm glad they both walked away from that one. Going through a power line, it could have been horrific.

          One good thing they did was to use a full-length departure. Intersection departures are tempting in a gyro or other STOL aircraft,
          but, as they say, runway behind you on a takeoff roll is useless. A gyro engine-out over a long runway can often be a non-event.

          Regards,
          Kolibri
          Last edited by Kolibri; 06-27-2018, 07:25 AM.
          PP - ASEL complex (Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, SC2), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

          Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

          "
          When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

          Comment


          • #20
            If I the engine goes quiet in The Predator I plan a three to one glide ratio. In other words 500 feet I have a circle with a radius of 1,500 feet that I can reach to touch down. A wind can shorten this dramatically.

            It is my observation wires are not at ground level and depending on the wires may be as high as 200 feet above the ground in flat terrain, higher across a canyon.

            I am always looking for places to land and noting the locations of obstructions. As I fly out or a place more often I work on creating a clear mental picture of the wires, trees, fences and ditches.

            Some wires are very hard to see and I find it best to look for the poles and fly over them if I need to cross the wires.
            Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

            Comment


            • #21
              I was doing some misc. gyro research today and came across the YouTube video of this crashsite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owoAS3KlccQ

              On the ramp, the passenger had asked somebody (presumably the pilot) the brand of gyro, which was misreported to him as "a Zeon".

              From the video and GoogleMaps, it was quick work to locate the crash site.
              The dirt road (and its corner) and rock pile were the biggest clues.
              Flying North, they impacted just a few hundred feet from Runway 33.
              The red oval represents the crashsite, while the black oval represents the grass fire started by the broken power line.

              The post-crash placed windsock seen at 0:55 corresponds roughly to the NTSB Report of wind being from 290 at 4kts.
              This helped me to first identify the likely road.

              They took off from Runway 15, which may have had a slight quartering tailwind.
              Runway 15 is left pattern, and over many buildings.

              However, Runway 33 would have apparently been into the wind, while also offering plenty of pasture below for left pattern work.

              Something to keep in mind if the wind allows runway choice.

              Kolibri



              Click image for larger version  Name:	20170417 Knoxville Xenon crash-5b.png Views:	1 Size:	66.3 KB ID:	1135278

              Click image for larger version  Name:	20170417 Knoxville Xenon crash-3b.png Views:	1 Size:	735.6 KB ID:	1135279


              Last edited by Kolibri; 07-06-2018, 02:34 PM.
              PP - ASEL complex (Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, SC2), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

              Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

              "
              When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

              Comment

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