Las Vegas - mass shooting

[Steve_UK]

Woke up to news of a shooting in Las Vegas - two dead.

Came back an hour later and figure revised up to 50 with many more in serious condition - appears the 64 year old shooter was high up in a hotel.

Goodness me - unimaginable horror for those caught up in it.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41466116

 

[Doug Riley]

To my knowledge, the first random mass shooting in this country happened in Texas in 1966. I'm at a loss to understand why we crossed this line then (and have never crossed back). Certainly, there have been angry people, and well-armed people, and mentally-disturbed people long before 1966. Jack the Ripper and the Chicago World's Fair murders were long ago. Warfare and other tribally-connected violence, including the butchery of civilian non-combatants, are older than the plagues of Egypt.

But randomly spraying a concert crowd with bullets under some hideous delusion is new. I don't know how we put those demons back into the box.

 

[wnwgj]

We have rather a low tolerance for guns in the UK - even being seen carrying a handgun here is enough for the police to shoot you dead (this actually happened here last week). Being seen carrying a gun (even in a case) in public is likely to attract the attention of the police who generally don't carry guns. As a result, it is very difficult to acquire guns and ammunition of almost any type and gun ownership is subject to tiresomely strict licensing controls - so most people don't have them. This is particularly true of handguns and automatic weapons both of which are banned - and you need a very good reason to own anything more than a low powered air rifle (and they are talking of extending the licensing system to cover those now as well!). Our very strict controls are at least partly as a result of previous shooting incidents and we don't get these types of incidents now......even terrorists seem to have given up on them as they are so readily identified if they are carrying a gun. 60 years ago, gun ownership was widespread here. So we are left wondering when the US will get tired of this type of gun violence and take the medicine we did.....?

 

[CLS447]

We used to carry our M1921 Thompsons (Tommy Guns ) With 100 rd drum mags (45ACP) in Violin cases to avoid detection.

The roaring 20's ! You could buy them at the hardware store !

What a fine piece of machinery it is but alas it is an antique , lousy accuracy & tends to have alot of torque roll when unloading that heavy drum. There are much better weapons now, but the Thompsons bring a ton of money here now. They did sell for 20K but I think they are much higher now. Legally registered with the ATF ....add another $200 tax stamp & set of prints. Not all states allow this, Nevada is a big free state. These registered gun have a near perfect record with the law.

It's always the illegal ones that cause trouble. 3 am the other night 3 shots were fire on my block. God only knows where the lead went. If we shake these people down for illegal guns , that would be racist !

Remember ....When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have the guns.. Warm fuzzy thought.....no ?

It's very hard to stop a determined madman ! Wait for the suitcase nuke !

I wonder what pushed this man to the brink ? They will never tell us the truth !

 

[klyde]

BBC news claims that violent crime is on the increase in the UK. There are statistics available to support your claim no matter which side you are on in the gun control issue. I know for myself, I live out some 14 miles from the HQ of the police. The police by policy are not allowed to prevent crimes. They are only allowed to prosecute those crimes. The defense of my wife and I as well as our property comes down to my wife and I. We have both taken hand gun classes and are prepared to defend our selves. The police will no doubt follow up on any occasions where we are forced to take action. I feel sorry for people who are left to defend themselves against criminal minded individual with only their phone and their hopes.

 

[chrisk]

I'd love to mount a mini-cun on my gyro for hunting hogs! --Hey, at least this is gyro related.

 

[N447MR]

We have rather a low tolerance for guns in the UK - even being seen carrying a handgun here is enough for the police to shoot you dead (this actually happened here last week). Being seen carrying a gun (even in a case) in public is likely to attract the attention of the police who generally don't carry guns. widespread here. So we are left wondering when the US will get tired of this type of gun violence and take the medicine we did.....?

Seems like you need more "medicine"? Have you not outlawed bombs and explosives? Are you developing a low tolerance for kitchen tools and motor vehicles?

Deadly explosion at Ariana Grande Concert
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/22/europe/gallery/manchester-arena-incident/index.html
London Bridge attack
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/london-bridge-attack-timeline-live-reactions/
Brutal, fatal cleaver assault in London
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/22/world/europe/uk-london-attack/index.html
Homemade bomb on London subway car that injured 29 people...
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/

There is an estimated (we'll never know) 300 million guns in the hands of US citizens.
299,999,500 or more didn't hurt anyone on 10/2/2017.

If the only "medicine" is the depravation of freedom, I say to those pedaling the medicine, "Keep it for yourselves!".

The armed citizen keeps a state free, and frees it when it is no longer. I believe that has been proven positively by those more brave than I in history.

"Liberty or Death." "Those who are willing to give up Liberty for a little bit of safety deserve neither."

 

[AirCommandPilot]

Without guns, we would still be speaking the Queens English.

 

[farmboy]

I'd love to mount a mini-cun on my gyro for hunting hogs! --Hey, at least this is gyro related.

Would the shell casings go through the prop?

 

[wnwgj]

Seems like you need more "medicine"? Have you not outlawed bombs and explosives? Are you developing a low tolerance for kitchen tools and motor vehicles?

Actually we have - the chemical input for explosives are wherever possible tightly controlled and possession of anything that the police consider could be an offensive weapon (which definitely includes kitchen utensils outside the kitchen) can deliver a jail term. The incidents you refer to are all related to islamist terrorism - not some retired accountant with a grudge of some sort. I understand that the American culture embraces guns and that's a choice you guys make - but you will continue to experience these terrible shootings for as long as you do and the rest of the the world will continue to look on in amazement. And just to make sure we remain on gyros, we control those also incredibly tightly too (btw - we can't even carry a gun in ours at all) - makes us sounds like a dictatorial health and safety police state! And there are lots of things I don't like about that - but tight gun control has been a price worth paying.

 

[ckurz7000]

We have strict gun control laws in Austria as well, albeit not as strict as in the UK. The Austrian police do carry guns. But very few people own guns. It just isn't a topic of interest nor is it viewed as "cool" or "desirable" to own a gun. I am not aware of any mass shootings in recent history over here. And I wonder what the score is of deaths caused vs. deaths prevented by guns in the general public.

-- Chris.

 

[loftus]

I understand that the American culture embraces guns and that's a choice you guys make - but you will continue to experience these terrible shootings for as long as you do and the rest of the the world will continue to look on in amazement.

Perfectly stated and undeniable, whatever one's stance on gun control. These mass shootings are now just part of american life, and neither side of the political spectrum, can or will do anything effective. As long as the mindset exists that this is a worthwhile cost of 'freedom', at least 50% of the populace would never surrender the assault weapons they already own. Everyone understands that for any gun laws to work, it would require not only banning sales of these weapons, but removing those already out there in the US as they did in Australia. Never going to happen in the US! So this is unfortunately the cost of 'freedom' - some freedom I guess when one has to start worrying that you might get shot with your family at a music concert. The world continues to turn on it's head, a well meaning 2nd amendment is being turned on it's head when we no longer just have to worry about protecting ourselves from our government, but our fellow citizens as well. Freedom is gone (how safe were those who got shot whether or not they owned guns), and unfortunately our second amendment will no longer bring it back. And for those who persist in thinking that their guns will protect them, sorry, your freedoms were removed without a shot being fired, starting with the IRS. the best we can hope for in the modern world is limited freedoms, and some sort of order in the chaos of life. I am not passing judgement on the second amendment, just stating that those who think it any longer guarantees them some sort of freedom are deluded.

 

[Steve_UK]

Loftus - I think you summed it up well.

Bear in mind your 2nd was written way back in completely different era - it may be time to consider some re-drafts to reflect 21st C.

I've no idea of a potential solution, however doing nothing is not much of an option either. You've got yourselfs in a right old pickle.

Good Luck

 

[Gman]

Right and Wrong hasn't changed and never will! When we let society start dictating to us what is right and wrong,morally and ethically we are in a dark place. 30 years ago it wasn't acceptable for women to marry woman and men to marry men, I believe this is wrong. Next year society may say if you live till you're 65 that's long enough, and have mandatory euthanasia, or it's acceptable to force sex on children, etc......
I know these things to be wrong even if society says they are OK.
We need to start doing things to make us a country of Doing What's Right and Just and Moral.again!

 

[AirCommandPilot]

Loftus - I think you summed it up well.

Bear in mind your 2nd was written way back in completely different era - it may be time to consider some re-drafts to reflect 21st C.

I've no idea of a potential solution, however doing nothing is not much of an option either. You've got yourselfs in a right old pickle.

Good Luck

Steve, Your Monarchy is outdated as well. It may be time to consider some re-drafts so your populous is not paying to prop up a "Royal" family in a lavish lifestyle while serving no purpose to it's citizens.

 

[XXavier]

Steve, Your Monarchy is outdated as well. It may be time to consider some re-drafts so your populous is not paying to prop up a "Royal" family in a lavish lifestyle while serving no purpose to it's citizens.

In Spain, we also have an outdated and useless 'royal family', that I hope will be ousted soon, but -–perhaps a a partial compensation-– the ownership of handguns is strongly restricted, as in the UK, where handguns were outlawed in the 1990s...

 

[N447MR]

Steve, Your Monarchy is outdated as well. It may be time to consider some re-drafts so your populous is not paying to prop up a "Royal" family in a lavish lifestyle while serving no purpose to it's citizens.

The irony of course, is that they are a people who could have had freedom from monarchy, but instead claimed victory in codifying the existence of it. It is cute that one would think themselves smarter than those who lived before simply because they live now. The Founding Father's were brilliant beyond what most can accept.

In our country we believe that one's rights exist because of the laws of nature and of nature's God. Not because some government or other ruler decided we could have them. Our government exists to secure or protect these rights, not to grant them. The second amendment identifies a clear area where it is necessary to specifically prevent the government from infringing and to ensure that our rights are not lost without consequence.

The Founders provided a method for amending our great constitution which, again, protects our rights not grant them. It is a purposely difficult process to avoid impassioned reaction to an event, avoid minority tyranny, and ensure general consensus.
1) Congress must propose the amendment
2) BOTH houses must be able to pass the amendment with a supermajority (2/3) in favor.
3) It goes to the people of each state and they vote on the amendment where 75% of the states must approve the amendment.

Perhaps that's just old and silly thinking, but I don't think so.

"Europe was created by history. America was created by philosophy." ~Margaret Thatcher, British Prime Minister

 

[N447MR]

In Spain, we also have an outdated and useless 'royal family', that I hope will be ousted soon, but -–perhaps a a partial compensation-– the ownership of handguns is strongly restricted, as in the UK, where handguns were outlawed in the 1990s...

Caladonia must also hope for independence rather than take it. Perhaps they don't deserve it?

 

[N447MR]

We have strict gun control laws in Austria as well, albeit not as strict as in the UK. The Austrian police do carry guns. But very few people own guns. It just isn't a topic of interest nor is it viewed as "cool" or "desirable" to own a gun. I am not aware of any mass shootings in recent history over here. And I wonder what the score is of deaths caused vs. deaths prevented by guns in the general public.

-- Chris.

Statistics are hard to come by if you believe in truth and clarity. It is estimated that greater than 100,000 people each year in the US defend their lives with guns.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-used-to-think-gun-control-was-the-answer-my-research-told-me-otherwise/2017/10/03/d33edca6-a851-11e7-92d1-58c702d2d975_story.html?nid&utm_term=.98ba5b639440

There are ~33,000 gun deaths per year in the US
66% or 20,000 are suicides
20% are males ages 15-34 and most likely involved in violent crime and who choose to live by the gun and without sound values. Drug and gang turf wars as demonstrated with this quote " Five police districts, which contain only 8 percent of city’s population, recorded an estimated 32 percent of its murders in 2016". https://www.thetrace.org/2017/01/chicago-not-most-dangerous-city-america/

"There were 29 such shootings (four or more fatalities in a public place, according to the FBI’s official definition) in the U.S. during the eight years of the Obama administration; 26 in Europe. The rate at which people are killed is virtually the same in the European Union as in the United States."
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/10/02/gun-control-in-europe-is-almost-total-it-hasnt-stopped-mass-shooting-attacks-like-las-vegas.html

So I guess all those gun laws aren't doing all that much good? Why delude ourselves? The city of Chicago, Illinois has some of the most strict gun laws making it almost impossible to legally own a firearm.
Same goes for France, yet all the mass shootings in 2015 killing 130 people had machine guns.

The problem is values and a culture that has turned its back on what created it. Not a lack of laws. We have plenty, and bad guys break them.

"We must be free not because we claim freedom, but because we practice it." ~William Faulkner

 

[XXavier]

Caladonia must also hope for independence rather than take it. Perhaps they don't deserve it?

Caladonia...? You probably mean 'Catalonia'... Well, Catalans are not mad... They are peace-loving people, that would never resort to kill other people in order to secede from Spain. It's the difference between being civilized and being barbarian...