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  • fara, thanks for your replies.

    The blades that cracked on AutoGyro were due to what I would consider inadequate engineering design.
    Uh, yeah, lol.

    So AutoGyro installed a subsequent gen hub bar in 2011?
    That also sounds like RAF.

    As a keen layman, I generally understand the challenges involved with coning, flexing, etc.
    IMO, nobody has spent more time and with greater success solving those challenges than Jim Vanek of Sport Copter.

    I think that the Euro gyro companies still have much to learn there.



    __________
    I requested a free set of rotors from Sport Copter? When :)? I must be getting old and my memory is not what it used to be but jog it please.
    Trenna recalled it.

    Though we never directly tested SC rotors on AR-1 prototype,
    Thank you for finally confirming that.

    Greg has decent number of hours flying SC rotors on various gyroplanes and his assessment was and is that they are nice but not as good in performance as Averso Stella.
    Too bad that the AR-1 was not used as the test gyro for all different blades, including Sport Rotors.
    Then you would have had objective data to share, vs. one pilot's subjective assessment.

    You prefer the Stellas. I prefer the Sport Rotors.
    Safe flying to us both.

    Kolibri


    Last edited by Kolibri; 02-10-2018, 02:04 PM.
    PP - ASEL (Piper 180, C172, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

    Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

    "My expectations: disclose the truth I need to fly safely, and act like you truly care about quality. Anything less is greed or laziness."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
      fara, thanks for your replies.


      Uh, yeah, lol.

      So AutoGyro installed a subsequent gen hub bar in 2011?
      That also sounds like RAF.
      Yes they did put out a new hub bar that had pre-cone angle and tapering towards its ends


      As a keen layman, I generally understand the challenges involved with coning, flexing, etc.
      IMO, nobody has spent more time and with greater success solving those challenges than Jim Vanek of Sport Copter.

      I think that the Euro gyro companies still have much to learn there.
      Arrogance is not a virtue and anyone of us can make mistakes. Professionalism is displayed in handling those mistakes and in doing business. Read my impression of American gyroplane industry in general at the time I started. I don't know what I don't know and I can make many mistakes including ones that look stupid but I promise to correct my stupid mistakes when we know and release safety information for our customers to correct them as soon as we humanly can. That's the best we can do. I am sure Jim Vanek of Sport Copter is a very smart and educated guy who will do the same. As I said I have never talked to him.


      __________
      Trenna recalled it.


      Thank you for finally confirming that.
      I don't know that name but I do remember vaguely talking to some lady there. I don't have a single email from anyone at Sport Copter or me asking for blades. Usually I do all serious business inquiries in writing so there is a record. Too bad if I asked and she outright refused to supply a test article to a serious startup OEM. May be she did not want their superior blades to go on a competing American product? We have not done too great but we just yesterday received our 30th order in 20 months with a backlog of 8 orders now and we are hiring one more person next week sometime full time.
      BTW, I am quite sure Greg's sense about the comparison is on the mark but hey if Trenna ever changes her mind and supplies a test article like McCutchen or Ernie, I can collect the data and post it here for your review for sure. There have been a couple of gyroplanes around here with SC rotors. One is still based at Zephyrhills airport. They are good as I have said. The single seater SC 912 gyro is about the same weight as AR-1 912 plus or minus a few and it seems to carry it fine



      Too bad that the AR-1 was not used as the test gyro for all different blades, including Sport Rotors.
      Then you would have had objective data to share, vs. one pilot's subjective assessment.

      You prefer the Stellas. I prefer the Sport Rotors.
      Safe flying to us both.

      Kolibri

      Last edited by fara; 02-10-2018, 02:36 PM.

      Comment


      • Not to speak for Jim, but I don't have the impression that he's currently interested in supplying Sport Rotors as OEM to other mfg.
        SC already has many orders so far for their upcoming rugged M2, and they are very busy making rotors for their own machines.

        His retrofit upgrade offerings (to RAF, AutoGyro, Xenon, etc.) seem done on an individual basis, vs. something he actively seeks out in the market.
        If he ever decided that it weren't worth the hassle, I'd completely understand. I'm glad to have had mine since 2015.

        For those RAFers not willing to spend the $11,000 on the full SC package (mast plates, rotorhead, air-trim, etc.), I'd just point 'em to Gyro-Tech.
        For the $4,200 delivered, it seems at least better than the RAF OEM parts.
        I still, however, wouldn't bet the ranch on RAF's torque tube and trim system!

        Regards, Kolibri




        PP - ASEL (Piper 180, C172, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

        Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

        "My expectations: disclose the truth I need to fly safely, and act like you truly care about quality. Anything less is greed or laziness."

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
          Not to speak for Jim, but I don't have the impression that he's currently interested in supplying Sport Rotors as OEM to other mfg.
          SC already has many orders so far for their upcoming rugged M2, and they are very busy making rotors for their own machines.

          His retrofit upgrade offerings (to RAF, AutoGyro, Xenon, etc.) seem done on an individual basis, vs. something he actively seeks out in the market.
          If he ever decided that it weren't worth the hassle, I'd completely understand. I'm glad to have had mine since 2015.

          For those RAFers not willing to spend the $11,000 on the full SC package (mast plates, rotorhead, air-trim, etc.), I'd just point 'em to Gyro-Tech.
          For the $4,200 delivered, it seems at least better than the RAF OEM parts.
          I still, however, wouldn't bet the ranch on RAF's torque tube and trim system!

          Regards, Kolibri



          I have never sat down and in detail looked at every aspect of a RAF and certainly not a RAF rotor head.
          But Kolibri RAF seems to have a fairly well known reputation in gyroplane circles in the US from the past deserved or not. So why would you as a newbie, go and buy a used RAF and then bitch about their quality or safety for months and then spend $11000 on top and probably still not past other issues you listed about fuel tanks etc. Why you as a new person would take a chance with a used machine of a dated design who everyone seems to know has a flawed reputation at least which is quite well known in the USA and which uses an alternative engine as well. I mean that just does not make sense to me. Did you not do any research?

          Comment


          • Kolibri you have no idea how little I care about your advice,I am glad that you have decided to leave me alone

            your raving and ranting was getting very old, so please pack up your dog and pony show and move it on down the road.
            Best Regards,
            Eddie Sigman,Polvadera,nm
            (575) 835-4921

            Comment


            • You just asked Kolibri a very good question,and why would you buy a gyrocoptor that has been in the costal states and subjected to

              salt air corrosion for about 13 years and has been poorly taken cared of. Aluminium and salty air just don't mix. My machine is in the

              land of very low humidity, and has been extremely well maintained. and your right the RAF reputation is a little on the backside of the

              curve. So why would he buy a machine like that,perhaps he is really as clueless as he appears to be. In my opinion his obsession

              with safety is just a smoke screen.
              Best Regards,
              Eddie Sigman,Polvadera,nm
              (575) 835-4921

              Comment


              • I think his concerns are from the right place but he does not know as much as he thinks about structure. Just because something is thicker or bigger is not why it is better. Otherwise engineering would be real simple. A great example to learn from is Super Cub, the most well known bushplane in the world. When he cites cracks in AutoGyro rotors and does not realize that the main reason they had cracks is because of their hub bar having two separate beams which make it much more rigid than hub bars that are single bars like a leaf spring in other rotor systems and that is why they had to taper theirs while others can get away with straight leaf springs bending much easier in excess loads when they need to, well that shows what he does and does not understand and for his level that's ok "except" he continues to draw further conclusions and generalizations from that which are simply not right. He even goes as far as saying that because the hub bar of SC rotors is thicker, it must be better without realizing that thicker bar also becomes stiffer and then starts to put more bending loads in hard maneuvers on the blade instead of hub bar and that is precisely what AutoGyro issue was also. The bigger/thicker is always better does not stand in engineering. It is sometimes and it isn't sometimes.

                His concern about the hub bar bolts of AutoGyro seems valid if they are really the real bolts AutoGyro uses. I find it hard to believe they are.
                Last edited by fara; 02-10-2018, 05:13 PM.

                Comment


                • Fara about the hubbar bolts, I was thinking the same thing. and your right bigger is usually never better in most aviation applications just heavier.

                  That's the main reason we have aviation engineers.
                  Best Regards,
                  Eddie Sigman,Polvadera,nm
                  (575) 835-4921

                  Comment


                  • "except" he continues to draw further conclusions and generalizations from that which are simply not right. He even goes as far as saying that because the hub bar of SC rotors is thicker, it must be better without realizing that thicker bar also becomes stiffer and then starts to put more bending loads in hard maneuvers on the blade instead of hub bar
                    I never made the blanket statement that "thicker is better" etc. Please stop inferring conclusions I never made.
                    The reason why the SC hub bar works so well is not solely due to its thickness, but that the rotors are bushed and Heim-jointed
                    and thus able to find their own coning and lead/lag angles. I've pointed this out several times.



                    Why you as a new person would take a chance with a used machine of a dated design
                    Because, fara, even with lots of pre-buy research a newbie wouldn't easily be able to parse out the conflicting camps of opinion.
                    Chuck Ellsworth vs. Harry S., for example.

                    Sometimes, one simply has to "go there" in ownership to really learn and understand things.

                    I recognized then that I was taking somewhat of a risk, but didn't imagine that Dofin Fritts was selling nonairworthy gyros.
                    I've done what I can to fix mine up, and to warn others about him.
                    I'm grieved that I didn't know enough in time to have warned Darren Mahler before he bought N5002E.

                    Does that answer your "question"?



                    _______
                    why would you buy a gyrocoptor that has been in the costal states and subjected to
                    salt air corrosion for about 13 years and has been poorly taken cared of.
                    Having spent decades near the Gult of Mexico, I'm very aware of corrosion issues there.
                    My RAF was quite corrosion-free, being sufficiently far from the water and always hangared.

                    Now, Mahler's N5002E, which had spent its entire time near New Orleans was another story.
                    Mucho corrosion. Even as a rank gyro/RAF newbie, I would have passed on it.

                    But, your snarky questions really illuminate more about yourselves than me.
                    What's worse: newbies ignorantly buying used RAFs with issues, or the CFI/broker who nonetheless sells them?
                    Go after the Bad Guy for once.


                    My machine . . . has been extremely well maintained
                    If it still has the OEM 650+ hour rod ends as your 2017 photos indicate, then your claim is . . . ________.

                    In my opinion his obsession with safety is just a smoke screen.
                    In my opinion your lack of obsession with safety seems genuine.

                    so please pack up your dog and pony show and move it on down the road.

                    When you meet a master swordsman, show him your sword.
                    When you meet a man who is not a poet, do not show him your poem
                    ."
                    ~ Lin-Chi


                    Last edited by Kolibri; 02-13-2018, 02:32 PM.
                    PP - ASEL (Piper 180, C172, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

                    Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

                    "My expectations: disclose the truth I need to fly safely, and act like you truly care about quality. Anything less is greed or laziness."

                    Comment

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