Calidus Instructor Pack

JJ it sounds like you have a good plan in place,just stay with it and enjoy you adventure.

Loftus I at first thought that stainless steel was a bad idea for the modern Gyro,but after educating myself about stainless
I can now see the benefits in using it. Todays Gyrocoptors are way safer,better built,and really good flying machines
however there are some who are still stuck in the past with out of date designs and are saying that they are the future
at a really high price. In the very near future all rotor blades will be carbon fiber,in fact the whole rotor system probably will
be carbon fiber just like todays helicopters,the day of the bolted together rotor tower and metal blades will not survive much longer

Todays modern Gyro's are just the beginning of the future of Gyrocoptors. The future of the gyro is bright indeed.
 
How many gyroplanes have you designed?
What's the highest number of flight hours you've so far tested one of your gyros? I'd be surprised if any have yet reached 1000+, or even 500.
So, how can we know how tough and long-lifed your SS masts are? "A new broom sweeps clean."
Your SS mast may indeed prove better than that of AutoGyro, Trixy, etc. but only time can tell.

On the other hand, there are Sport Copter airframes with 2000+ hours on them, and their 4130 dampened two-piece masts have amply proven themselves throughout much very hard flying.

Regards,
Kolibri

There is big difference between the two pictures side by side Kolibiri. Not just welding but how they are put together. We did do the first batch of 6 in that way so you must be either taking a picture of an Apollo which I sold as a dealer at the start or our first batch. The welding was outsourced to start and after one year was brought in house long time ago.

Anyway, we have an AR-1 above 750 hours with hardly any major maintenance needed. I have had 2 mandatory safety bulletins and one service bulletin for an optional upgrade of a trim. Not bad for a new design. Barry Ford's black AR-1 here in one year has over 300 hours already. Greg has about 250 training hours in his gyroplane since just Feb. I am more worried about gyros that sit around and don't run.

2000+ hours for Sport Copter airframes? That's it. I have trikes out there made of Aluminum that have over 4000 hours on them made in 2006. I expected Sport Copters out there with 5000+ hours. They have been around for a while. Looks like they don;t get to fly as much.
John Lodge who now has an AR-1, vertically descended in his 582 Vortex near his airport, I'd have to ask him again but I believe his mast was done and his keel tube broke apart and he was airlifted to a hospital. Aircraft are not tanks nor should they be. There is a certain amount and amplitude of hard landing they are supposed to handle.
 
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Do you know how many structural failures there have been in Autogyro aircraft, when they occurred and which aircraft type,
and if there have been any reported in any Autogyros sold lets say in the last 5 years?
loftus, I'm now compiling that data, and will post a comprehensive chart, as I did about RAF fatalities and their causes.
I have sources in Europe to help on that side.



_________
I at first thought that stainless steel was a bad idea for the modern Gyro,but after educating myself about stainless
I can now see the benefits in using it.
eddie, the benefits of stainless steel masts to the customer are not plural, but singular: reduced corrosion.
And that's at the unacceptable cost of short-term mechanical strength.
Stainless is used because of benefits to the manufacturers, who whistle past the work-hardening graveyard of low-cycle 304 SS.



however there are some who are still stuck in the past with out of date designs and are saying that they are the future
at a really high price.
Your obvious implication to Sport Copter is specious. You have conflated RAF's poorly designed/made teeter towers to those of SC,
and then use such as a straw man to allege that SC is behind the times. Do you really believe this forum's readership is so gullible?

For example, have you ever seen or flown their SCII? Try cooling a 235hp IO-360 Lycoming in a pusher gyro at 20mph slow flight over Phoenix.
And, neither have you seen the new Vortex M2, an affordable 2-place unmatched in performance, safety, and ruggedness.
Finally, the SC4, a 2+2 with 250hp, a completely new suspension and other key components will be a world first.
Sorry, but you're simply un/underinformed here.



________________
There is big difference between the two pictures side by side Kolibiri.
Uh, yeah. For me, the left-hand photo's mast welds and multi-piece construction inspire little confidence.
Good thing you went away from that method/quality. And you made six that way? I suggest that you keep a very close eye on them.



We did do the first batch of 6 in that way so you must be either taking a picture of an Apollo which I sold as a dealer at the start or our first batch.
That photo, by the way, was a screenshot at 22:55 from your own video SILVERLIGHT AVIATION Gyroplane Building Process
published Nov. 2016 from your "new shop" assembling AR-1 gyros, not Apollos. You commented on this video here.
The entire shop seemed to be assembling such frames for the AR-1. Here is a wider screenshot of the same photo, with you in it.


from 22:55 of Silverlight video.png

we have an AR-1 above 750 hours with hardly any major maintenance needed.
That's encouraging, good news, I wish you continuing service life.


2000+ hours for Sport Copter airframes? That's it. . . . I expected Sport Copters out there with 5000+ hours.
They have been around for a while. Looks like they don;t get to fly as much.
2000+ hours was my own conservative estimate, so that I wouldnt be accused of exaggerating.
Of course they have been flying for longer than that. I'll get the numbers from Jim.



vertically descended in his 582 Vortex near his airport, I'd have to ask him again but I believe his mast was done
and his keel tube broke apart and he was airlifted to a hospital.
Lodge's 582 lost power at 100'. He flared too high on landing.
According to a Wolverines forum friend "Henry Bowman" "
he said if he hadn't flared to[o] early he would have been alright on touchdown".

After he hard pancaked in, his mast and keel were damaged? Little wonder.
He survived such in his Vortex, and lived to fly again? Also, little wonder.
If I ever make such a crash/landing, I hope it's in a Sport Copter.

Oh, and btw, that gyro N179V was sold, rebuilt, and then upgraded to an M912.
So, the damage must not have been extensive.
Also, he was airlifted to the hospital "
as a precaution" -- not because his injuries were extensive.
He had merely a bruised shoulder from the restraint.
fara, if you're going to use a Sport Copter crash to allege something, at least do so fairly.

Regards,
Kolibri
 
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There are about 100 different stainless steel alloys in 4 general categories.

The high strength, heat resisting SS alloy used in jet engines is not the same as type 304. the pot and pan grade.

SS type 304 has a yield strength of 30,000 psi; electrical conduit (EMT) has a yield strength of 35.000 psi. Both are formulated for easy formability.

So; a hobycopter could just as easily be built from EMT but who would buy it? The most important attributes of consumer products are aesthetics and perceptions. Conduit is ugly.
 
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Brain Jackson - I'm going to start a new thread on that topic and try my best to not include anything that will derail it...
jj
 
JJ Campbell;n1136305 said:
Brain Jackson - I'm going to start a new thread on that topic and try my best to not include anything that will derail it...
jj

FWIW. My hangar mate flies a Calidus and loves it. Of the 3 Autogyro machines ( not including the new MTO which I have not flown) the Calidus is my favorite.
 
I was rather interested in reading about the Calidus instructor package before the thread devolved.
Sorry about the material properties detour for safety's sake.

I guess everyone already knew about cracking Calidus masts/welds and the wisdom of making
gyros out of kitchen utensils material.


SS type 304 has a yield strength of 30,000 psi; electrical conduit (EMT) has a yield strength of 35.000 psi.
Not even the strength of EMT? Good enough!

(By the way, 4130 yield strength is 52,000 psi.)

______________
A quote from Mike G in a thread about ELA losing tail booms in flight seems appropriate here:

You then ask:
“So what is the right thing to do here in your opinion?”

In my opinion it doesn’t matter what we do because nothing is going to change.

Why? Because the people who buy these machines :
  1. Are going to buy a pig with lipstick (thanks for that one Chuck) and all they can see is the lipstick.

“That _______ sure looks sexy, I must have one”
  1. Are going to listen to the sales guy who tells them that he has no problems with ____ and that their engineers are the best.

“that guy on the forum doesn'’t know what he’s talking about, trust me, I’'ve been flying gyros for years, this is a sweet machine”
  1. Are not interested in the details of how the gyro was designed or built so long as the seats are leather and the paint is shiny. . . . People simply aren’t interested in knowing the truth; it risks to stop them having a sexy gyro in their hanger.

We are wasting our time trying to educate owners and potential owners, “you can lead a donkey to water but you can’t make him drink”.
 
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JJ Campbell;n1136305 said:
Brain Jackson - I'm going to start a new thread on that topic and try my best to not include anything that will derail it...
jj

You're good, JJ. Sometimes there's just nagging and nit picking (not sure how one picks a nit) that kinda spoils some threads that would otherwise be educational.
 
fara;n1136249 said:
Kolibri:
You do know that I have designed or co-designed 5 aircraft and I have worked on certifying structurally 5 other aircraft and even today I have contracts to help companies on the side to get through design and flight testing so they can pass FAA scrutiny.
Of course you have a right to your opinion but I am not sure if I should worry about your opinion in this specific case. If your whole argument against our design is built on they have stainless steel, I am not too worried. Just FYI, SU26 Sukhoi has complete fuselage and engine mount made from properly welded stainless steel structure. Almost 75% of all Turbo prop engine mounts are welded stainless steel structures. Having said this the most common crack on mast I have seen in SS frames on European production gyroplanes are right around the engine mount but that is not because its Stainless. Its improper design and bad welding process
Here is one of my handy works. Trust me I know a tiny little bit about 4130 and its welding and structure and how bush planes are made. I know it may be hard for you to believe but ..
https://www.facebook.com/LegendAircr...E2MjcyMzg2Mjk/

Fly safe.

Abid, why not just tell him that you're an aeronautical or mechanical engineer and also a professional pilot and know more than him? I mean I hope you are if not then I'll just go back to the shadows and enjoy the interaction between you too for what it is, two people writing opinions of what they have learned from others.
 
One does not have to respond or react to everything
 
fara;n1137170 said:
One does not have to respond or react to everything

But I've been reading you respond to almost everything for many years here so I believe if you just told him you're an aeronautical engineer and a professional pilot then that would make your opinion hold more water than his because he's not an aeronautical engineer and is a private pilot. Wouldn't it?
 
Carlos:
This forum of any other forum about aviation has more instances of where me being a mechanical, micro-electronics or comp. sci engineer means very little. Or me having successfully taken 5 designs through compliance and FAA audits and one through a Type and Production certificate. Or me helping 5 other companies do that as well while getting paid professionally. It does not matter here. There is big difference between being a pilot and an engineer. Many times great pilots don't even make great test pilots. Everything has its place in a project.
I honestly have nothing to gain by arguing with Kolibiri. He is entitled to his opinions and for him they are as valid as anything else. He likes Sport Copter style product and Sport Copter is a fine machine but its different than what we are doing. Why do I need to claim superiority over him to win an argument. I laid out my view and he laid out his. You can decide which you like.
Rest of our year's capacity for 2018 is booked already. I got better ways to spend mind share and time. I have interests in music (guitar), particle Physics and other subjects where I feel my spare time being fulfilled in a much better positive way. My brother passed away at 56 this April. Highly qualified surgeon and Physician making an impact on hundreds of lives. Just suddenly went. My perspective certainly changed. Life is short and not worth wasting time that we have. If Kolibiri finds fulfillment laying his views out and would like to argue every single point, great for him. Go for it.

I do personally enjoy sometimes a good discussion here as long as it does not get into personal attacks but some of the personalities on this forum sometimes have a hard time from not going there and I have learned (somewhat slowly perhaps) that its not worth going there with them. There is very good information on this forum and very bad information as well. Its up to the reader to decipher which is which.
 
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Nobody here has addressed the work hardening and eventual embrittlement that is typical of 300 series stainless steel
when subjected to vibration and stress such as in a gyro mast. I.e., it goes beyond mere yield strength comparisons.

I don't argue as a hobby. I try to pick worthy topics that matter to get right.

Sorry about the loss of your brother, fara.

Regards,
Kolibri
 
Kolibri;n1137238 said:
Nobody here has addressed the work hardening and eventual embrittlement that is typical of 300 series stainless steel
when subjected to vibration and stress such as in a gyro mast. I.e., it goes beyond mere yield strength comparisons.

I don't argue as a hobby. I try to pick worthy topics that matter to get right.

Sorry about the loss of your brother, fara.

Regards,
Kolibri

Thanks.
The fatigue of 6061-T6 Aluminum alloy is 14 x 10^3 psi versus 304 is 30 x 10^3 psi. Fatigue Strength is important to the design of parts with high deflection cycles which basically applies in the structure of a mast of a gyroplane. So if its "ok" to use 6061-T6 Aluminum mast on a gyroplane (aka Dominator, Sport Copter Vortex etc.) than you can be sure that a 304 mast fatigue strength is twice as much and it can withstand many more cycles than 6061-T6 mast of the usual gyroplane mast deflection than Aluminum masts can without failing. The mast of that Calidus that was busted clear in half ... that was a new frame and that happened on supposedly the second flight of that frame. Obviously fatigue had no role to play there yet. Hope that helps.
 
Kolibri;n1137238 said:
Nobody here has addressed the work hardening and eventual embrittlement that is typical of 300 series stainless steel
when subjected to vibration and stress such as in a gyro mast. I.e., it goes beyond mere yield strength comparisons.

I don't argue as a hobby. I try to pick worthy topics that matter to get right.

Sorry about the loss of your brother, fara.

Regards,
Kolibri

Enough of this madness!

In my experience 4130 work hardens.

It is my observation that 4130 structures are prone to breaking near a weld that is not properly done.

Aircraft piston engine mounts are often made from 4130 and regularly fail from work hardening so much so that there are shops that specialize in repairing them.

In my opinion any alloy that can be heat treated can also work harden from repeated cycles.

Corrosion can be a problem for 4130 tubing structures if not properly treated.

In my opinion anyone that thinks 4130 is some sort of answer to everything hasn’t worked with it much.

I have worked with 4130 a lot; in my opinion there is no reason to fear a properly designed and fabricated gyroplane frame despite the challenges of 4130.
 
Vance;n1137244 said:
.....in my opinion there is no reason to fear a properly designed and fabricated gyroplane frame despite the challenges of 4130.

I sure hope so. I'm starting to worry about finishing my gyro tomorrow and flying it !
 
I'm not the only one who suffers from "madness":

Stainless steel is used extensively by AutoGyro as a structural material in its products, and has some desirable properties, but it becomes brittle over time when subjected to vibration. There are major components of machines built this way which are subject to hour limits. The extruded aluminum blades are also time-limited.
PW_Plack 12-04-2017, 10:57 AM
 
Kolibri;n1137262 said:
I'm not the only one who suffers from "madness":

The madness is preaching that a 4130 mast is good and a stainless mast is bad as though 4130 was some sort of savior.

4130 has its problems with fabrication and work hardening in addition to corrosion.

Stainless has its challenges too.

Any alloyed steel that can be heat treated will work harden.

A Robinson Helicopter has hour limits on its 4130 frame for this reason.

Anything made from either material has to be designed and fabricated correctly.

In my opinion no gyroplane is designed to survive undamaged when the rotor is stopped near flight rpm and were it fails is not indicative of how it will perform in flight.

In my opinion pontificating about something you know so little about makes people concerned about gyroplane design. They may not realize that you’re just adding drama to relatively simple mechanical engineering.

Design is a compromise and there is seldom only one way to accomplish a simple task.

People who actually know something about it have tried to educate you and you see it as an opportunity to argue. That is why I have given up trying to teach you anything.

My goal is to not let your officious, contentions ramblings pass as reality.
 
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