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  • #76
    Also Helios use complete carbon fiber rotor heads.

    I have heard that the TAG is a very well built machine and it is made a little larger than most.

    Farmer Jim seemed to really be proud of his and enjoyed flying it.

    It was the machine that finally got him in the air with complete trust and confidence in its construction and flyability.

    Best Regards,
    Eddie Sigman,Polvadera,nm
    (575) 835-4921

    Comment


    • #77
      I've flown a couple of Titaniums now and they are finished like a high end Mercedes Benz.

      Comment


      • #78
        Making that a generalization that all frames made of stainless steel won't make to 1000 hours is without any merit.
        There are 100's of AutoGyro Gmbh frames out there which have made it well past that
        fara, I wrote masts, not frames. The distinction is important.
        I'd be very keen to inspect some high-time AG masts.


        __________
        so let's talk about the TAG Titanium with it's titanium frame and mast, is that better than the Sport Copter?
        I know helicopter rotorheads are made of titanium so it must be good.
        Fine by me, Piot135pd. I'm only interested in eventually seeing not a hint of issue with mast/rotor system strength.
        Sport Copter and Magni seem to excel there, and I've also generally heard good reports about Titanium gyros.
        TAG Aviation's rationale is explicit:


        Why Titanium?

        With the reports of cracking hub bars and cracking aluminium rotor blades on some European gyros we decided to look at better materials to use in our new gyro
        PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

        "
        When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

        Comment


        • #79
          Kolibiri:
          There is no difference between a mast and a frame for these gyros. They are one big welded assembly. TAG has a separated mast held by a couple of AN 6 bolts all the way at the bottom but that aside, all the rest have one frame and mast is a part of it.
          Have you ever examined actual structural elements of these gyroplanes, Magni, AutoGyro Gmbh, ELA G7, Titanium gyro etc. carefully in person?

          Comment


          • #80
            But it is the upper mast which acts like a "live shaft" in an orbital fashion, thus its material and design are crucial.
            Yes, I know that the mast is welded to the lower frame.
            I've examined some of these in person, and will further my study.

            Recall that I posed a very simple question:

            The issue is between your 304 stainless vs. aircraft ubiquitous 4130 chrome-moly.
            Compare two masts of identical strength (the stainless must be of thicker wall, since it's weaker): which mast will wear out or fail first?
            That is the question.
            And it's one that nobody here has tackled.

            Regards,
            Kolibri
            PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

            "
            When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

            Comment


            • #81
              Kolibiri:
              You don't seem to grasp the concepts of strength, rigidity, elasticity and cold work hardening properly.
              Anyway, properly designed and executed both masts will have equal normal useful life but 304 mast will be heavier as you said. 4130 will be heavier than Aluminum mast

              Comment


              • #82
                properly designed and executed both masts will have equal normal useful life
                Based on what testing? Do you seriously believe that 4130 and 304 equally tolerate vibration and orbital stress?
                They they work harden to the the same embrittlement over the same span of load and time?

                I realize that you and all the other SS mast mfg. are relying on the notion that there's no difference in useful life.
                Over the long haul, I hope you're right.

                Regards,
                Kolibri


                PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                "
                When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
                  Based on what testing? Do you seriously believe that 4130 and 304 equally tolerate vibration and orbital stress?
                  They they work harden to the the same embrittlement over the same span of load and time?

                  I realize that you and all the other SS mast mfg. are relying on the notion that there's no difference in useful life.
                  Over the long haul, I hope you're right.

                  Regards,
                  Kolibri

                  Kolibiri:
                  Just go and get a ME and then use it for a few years and you will eventually figure out how to design structures with different materials to an expected target cycle life.
                  4130 is superior simply because it can get you there with lower weight. Its quite simple. You can get there with SS 304 but with a penalty.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Just go and get a ME and then use it for a few years and you will eventually figure out how to design structures with different materials to an expected target cycle life.
                    fara, is that what you did, got your Mechanical Engineering degree and then used it to choose 304 stainless?
                    PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                    "
                    When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by fara View Post

                      Originally posted by Alan_Cheatham View Post
                      "The conclusion seems to be that since the only members who talked about it were one owner, of debatable technical competence ............"

                      Out of curiosity, who is this one owner referenced above?

                      Probably Mike G
                      And BTW, I have met, spend time and took a balancing course on PB-4 with Mike since he posted about the ELA welds and other issues. Of course I spent a lot of time with him discussing many other aviation engineering related topics and gyroplane related things. Mike G is very technically competent. He makes a lot of sense and his engineering background is solid and he is down to earth. Just to be clear. I'd definitely listen when Mike G strongly suggests something.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
                        fara, is that what you did, got your Mechanical Engineering degree and then used it to choose 304 stainless?
                        Kolibiri:
                        And Microelectronics engineering and Computer Science.
                        What is your point?
                        How many aircraft have you designed and how many have you certified for how many companies and where are they flying? Talk is cheap. Its harder to shut up and go do things and make things. This is getting old. I love it at RWF. Everyone is an expert. Theoretical myths are accepted as truth without any test data properly collected because of some old school cult of personality and everyone plays pretend engineer and people who have never put any aircraft ever in production in any capacity (just simply being a pilot) opine expertly on aircraft life cycles and continued airworthiness without having written ever a single safety directive. Sorry Kolibiri for putting it bluntly.
                        Last edited by fara; 08-31-2018, 04:05 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          fara, because you left it so vague, please just answer the below two questions:

                          1) you have a degree in Mechanical Engineering?
                          2) you used that ME degree knowledge in testing 304 SS against 4130 chrome-moly for gyro mast material life cycle?

                          You keep referring to having designed aircraft and gotten them certified.
                          You're talking about your trikes, correct?

                          Regarding Silverlight Aviation, I've heard that Greg Spicolli is the designer, and that you're not even a rated gyro pilot.
                          Please correct any misinformation relayed to me about that.

                          And isn't the AR-1 essentially a copy of the Apollo AG1 from Hungary, a gyro that you did not design and which already had a stainless steal mast?



                          Click image for larger version

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                          In fact, the AR-1 is such a faithful copy that you still use metric bolts, even though your Florida factory suffers no supply issue of AN hardware.

                          ___________
                          My point in these posts is to illustrate the copy of a copy of a copy nature of too many gyros on the market,
                          as well as challenge the "
                          Well, it's always been done it that way!" philosophy of most gyro kit mfg.

                          Thanks,
                          Kolibri
                          Last edited by Kolibri; 09-03-2018, 12:52 PM.
                          PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                          "
                          When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            kolibri, you demand that fara answer your questions which he did answer along with additional degrees earned while you were disrespectful ignoring his questions of you

                            And Microelectronics engineering and Computer Science.
                            What is your point?
                            How many aircraft have you designed and how many have you certified for how many companies and where are they flying?

                            ​​​​​​Well ?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              kolibri, how about this question from fara which appears to me you skipped over and tried to twist his reply that was very clear about frames, masts and welded structure to help you and other readers understand the truth

                              Have you ever examined actual structural elements of these gyroplanes, Magni, AutoGyro Gmbh, ELA G7, Titanium gyro etc. carefully in person?

                              That seems pretty clear. Have you ?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                kolibri, in post #81 above you quote your own question in the shaded box. But in post #33 above that question is answered along with details and an external link.

                                But with facts, truthful examples and many responses posted if you still don't get how absurd your rants have become I for one won't stop replying because that would appear to you that I came around to your views. Game on.

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