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  • #46
    Brain Jackson - I'm going to start a new thread on that topic and try my best to not include anything that will derail it...
    jj

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    • #47
      Originally posted by JJ Campbell View Post
      Brain Jackson - I'm going to start a new thread on that topic and try my best to not include anything that will derail it...
      jj
      FWIW. My hangar mate flies a Calidus and loves it. Of the 3 Autogyro machines ( not including the new MTO which I have not flown) the Calidus is my favorite.

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      • #48


        I was rather interested in reading about the Calidus instructor package before the thread devolved.
        Sorry about the material properties detour for safety's sake.

        I guess everyone already knew about cracking Calidus masts/welds and the wisdom of making
        gyros out of kitchen utensils material.


        SS type 304 has a yield strength of 30,000 psi; electrical conduit (EMT) has a yield strength of 35.000 psi.
        Not even the strength of EMT? Good enough!

        (By the way, 4130 yield strength is 52,000 psi.)

        ______________
        A quote from Mike G in a thread about ELA losing tail booms in flight seems appropriate here:

        You then ask:
        “So what is the right thing to do here in your opinion?”

        In my opinion it doesn’t matter what we do because nothing is going to change.

        Why? Because the people who buy these machines :
        1. Are going to buy a pig with lipstick (thanks for that one Chuck) and all they can see is the lipstick.


        “That _______ sure looks sexy, I must have one”
        1. Are going to listen to the sales guy who tells them that he has no problems with ____ and that their engineers are the best.


        “that guy on the forum doesn'’t know what he’s talking about, trust me, I’'ve been flying gyros for years, this is a sweet machine”
        1. Are not interested in the details of how the gyro was designed or built so long as the seats are leather and the paint is shiny. . . . People simply aren’t interested in knowing the truth; it risks to stop them having a sexy gyro in their hanger.


        We are wasting our time trying to educate owners and potential owners, “you can lead a donkey to water but you can’t make him drink”.
        Last edited by Kolibri; 08-05-2018, 05:44 AM.
        PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

        "
        When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by JJ Campbell View Post
          Brain Jackson - I'm going to start a new thread on that topic and try my best to not include anything that will derail it...
          jj
          You're good, JJ. Sometimes there's just nagging and nit picking (not sure how one picks a nit) that kinda spoils some threads that would otherwise be educational.

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          • #50
            Brian Jackson - I started a new post that hopefully won't get hijacked.
            jj

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by fara View Post

              Kolibri:
              You do know that I have designed or co-designed 5 aircraft and I have worked on certifying structurally 5 other aircraft and even today I have contracts to help companies on the side to get through design and flight testing so they can pass FAA scrutiny.
              Of course you have a right to your opinion but I am not sure if I should worry about your opinion in this specific case. If your whole argument against our design is built on they have stainless steel, I am not too worried. Just FYI, SU26 Sukhoi has complete fuselage and engine mount made from properly welded stainless steel structure. Almost 75% of all Turbo prop engine mounts are welded stainless steel structures. Having said this the most common crack on mast I have seen in SS frames on European production gyroplanes are right around the engine mount but that is not because its Stainless. Its improper design and bad welding process
              Here is one of my handy works. Trust me I know a tiny little bit about 4130 and its welding and structure and how bush planes are made. I know it may be hard for you to believe but ..
              https://www.facebook.com/LegendAircr...E2MjcyMzg2Mjk/

              Fly safe.
              Abid, why not just tell him that you're an aeronautical or mechanical engineer and also a professional pilot and know more than him? I mean I hope you are if not then I'll just go back to the shadows and enjoy the interaction between you too for what it is, two people writing opinions of what they have learned from others.

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              • #52
                One does not have to respond or react to everything

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by fara View Post
                  One does not have to respond or react to everything
                  But I've been reading you respond to almost everything for many years here so I believe if you just told him you're an aeronautical engineer and a professional pilot then that would make your opinion hold more water than his because he's not an aeronautical engineer and is a private pilot. Wouldn't it?

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                  • #54
                    Carlos:
                    This forum of any other forum about aviation has more instances of where me being a mechanical, micro-electronics or comp. sci engineer means very little. Or me having successfully taken 5 designs through compliance and FAA audits and one through a Type and Production certificate. Or me helping 5 other companies do that as well while getting paid professionally. It does not matter here. There is big difference between being a pilot and an engineer. Many times great pilots don't even make great test pilots. Everything has its place in a project.
                    I honestly have nothing to gain by arguing with Kolibiri. He is entitled to his opinions and for him they are as valid as anything else. He likes Sport Copter style product and Sport Copter is a fine machine but its different than what we are doing. Why do I need to claim superiority over him to win an argument. I laid out my view and he laid out his. You can decide which you like.
                    Rest of our year's capacity for 2018 is booked already. I got better ways to spend mind share and time. I have interests in music (guitar), particle Physics and other subjects where I feel my spare time being fulfilled in a much better positive way. My brother passed away at 56 this April. Highly qualified surgeon and Physician making an impact on hundreds of lives. Just suddenly went. My perspective certainly changed. Life is short and not worth wasting time that we have. If Kolibiri finds fulfillment laying his views out and would like to argue every single point, great for him. Go for it.

                    I do personally enjoy sometimes a good discussion here as long as it does not get into personal attacks but some of the personalities on this forum sometimes have a hard time from not going there and I have learned (somewhat slowly perhaps) that its not worth going there with them. There is very good information on this forum and very bad information as well. Its up to the reader to decipher which is which.
                    Last edited by fara; 08-22-2018, 02:22 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Nobody here has addressed the work hardening and eventual embrittlement that is typical of 300 series stainless steel
                      when subjected to vibration and stress such as in a gyro mast. I.e., it goes beyond mere yield strength comparisons.

                      I don't argue as a hobby. I try to pick worthy topics that matter to get right.

                      Sorry about the loss of your brother, fara.

                      Regards,
                      Kolibri
                      PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                      "
                      When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
                        Nobody here has addressed the work hardening and eventual embrittlement that is typical of 300 series stainless steel
                        when subjected to vibration and stress such as in a gyro mast. I.e., it goes beyond mere yield strength comparisons.

                        I don't argue as a hobby. I try to pick worthy topics that matter to get right.

                        Sorry about the loss of your brother, fara.

                        Regards,
                        Kolibri
                        Thanks.
                        The fatigue of 6061-T6 Aluminum alloy is 14 x 10^3 psi versus 304 is 30 x 10^3 psi. Fatigue Strength is important to the design of parts with high deflection cycles which basically applies in the structure of a mast of a gyroplane. So if its "ok" to use 6061-T6 Aluminum mast on a gyroplane (aka Dominator, Sport Copter Vortex etc.) than you can be sure that a 304 mast fatigue strength is twice as much and it can withstand many more cycles than 6061-T6 mast of the usual gyroplane mast deflection than Aluminum masts can without failing. The mast of that Calidus that was busted clear in half ... that was a new frame and that happened on supposedly the second flight of that frame. Obviously fatigue had no role to play there yet. Hope that helps.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
                          Nobody here has addressed the work hardening and eventual embrittlement that is typical of 300 series stainless steel
                          when subjected to vibration and stress such as in a gyro mast. I.e., it goes beyond mere yield strength comparisons.

                          I don't argue as a hobby. I try to pick worthy topics that matter to get right.

                          Sorry about the loss of your brother, fara.

                          Regards,
                          Kolibri
                          Enough of this madness!

                          In my experience 4130 work hardens.

                          It is my observation that 4130 structures are prone to breaking near a weld that is not properly done.

                          Aircraft piston engine mounts are often made from 4130 and regularly fail from work hardening so much so that there are shops that specialize in repairing them.

                          In my opinion any alloy that can be heat treated can also work harden from repeated cycles.

                          Corrosion can be a problem for 4130 tubing structures if not properly treated.

                          In my opinion anyone that thinks 4130 is some sort of answer to everything hasn’t worked with it much.

                          I have worked with 4130 a lot; in my opinion there is no reason to fear a properly designed and fabricated gyroplane frame despite the challenges of 4130.
                          Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Vance View Post
                            .....in my opinion there is no reason to fear a properly designed and fabricated gyroplane frame despite the challenges of 4130.
                            I sure hope so. I'm starting to worry about finishing my gyro tomorrow and flying it !

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I'm not the only one who suffers from "madness":

                              Stainless steel is used extensively by AutoGyro as a structural material in its products, and has some desirable properties, but it becomes brittle over time when subjected to vibration. There are major components of machines built this way which are subject to hour limits. The extruded aluminum blades are also time-limited.
                              PW_Plack 12-04-2017, 10:57 AM
                              PP - ASEL complex (C172RG, Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, Sport Copter II, M912), soloed in gliders

                              "
                              When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
                                I'm not the only one who suffers from "madness":
                                The madness is preaching that a 4130 mast is good and a stainless mast is bad as though 4130 was some sort of savior.

                                4130 has its problems with fabrication and work hardening in addition to corrosion.

                                Stainless has its challenges too.

                                Any alloyed steel that can be heat treated will work harden.

                                A Robinson Helicopter has hour limits on its 4130 frame for this reason.

                                Anything made from either material has to be designed and fabricated correctly.

                                In my opinion no gyroplane is designed to survive undamaged when the rotor is stopped near flight rpm and were it fails is not indicative of how it will perform in flight.

                                In my opinion pontificating about something you know so little about makes people concerned about gyroplane design. They may not realize that you’re just adding drama to relatively simple mechanical engineering.

                                Design is a compromise and there is seldom only one way to accomplish a simple task.

                                People who actually know something about it have tried to educate you and you see it as an opportunity to argue. That is why I have given up trying to teach you anything.

                                My goal is to not let your officious, contentions ramblings pass as reality.
                                Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

                                Comment

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