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  • Originally posted by Kolibri View Post
    OK, I'll rephrase: I also "don't know" what happened but concur with the probable cause finding of the NTSB.

    __________
    I think that some here are getting too hung up on the report's downstream errors (full pitch, folding mast, etc.).

    What if the NTSB report on N5002E had read this instead:



    Probable Cause and Findings

    The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
    The failure of the flight control rod bearing due to an undetected preexisting corrosion-induced
    crack, control continuity most likely was lost, and the rotor experienced a large uncommanded
    cyclic input that caused it to stall on the retreating side and teeter down into the prop and tail.



    Would some of you still be questioning probable cause that a) the rod end failed in flight, and b) that it resulted in the crash?

    Regards,
    Kolibri




    Yes; in my opinion your version is not credible and does not fit the definition of probable cause.

    I am clear that I don't know what happened.

    In my opinion the control rod end either broke in flight or on impact; I simply donít know.

    In my opinion the value of the report and the discussion is to think about such things, imagine the possibilities and learn how to be safer pilots.

    I feel condemning or blaming someone detracts from the process.

    Please just give it a rest.
    Last edited by Vance; 09-29-2018, 07:05 AM.
    Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

    Comment


    • Originally posted by HighAltitude View Post
      Thank you Vance for your wise comments. When I purchased my 75 year old plane from an A&P, I took the time to do my own pre-buy inspection consisting of multiple pages of checklist items. Was I qualified? Maybe not but I had many many photos and instructions from other owners so I felt that I had done my absolute best. I even sent photos and called my mentor while I was there to confirm a couple of squaks. Then, I hired a ferry pilot to fly it to my home town service center and pay them to complete another annual even though it had a "fresh" one by the A&P seller. I was very lucky that the father of my A&P had worked in the factory and we even daydreamed that he may have had a part in building my plane. Pretty cool. Once that full annual was complete I felt comfortable taking passengers up after I logged approx 10 hours of flight time.

      When I sold my first plane with 80 hours on it, I found a bill of sale on the EAA website that is two pages long of single page type. It basically said that the plane is experimental and is unsafe. It also said that it was amateur built and AS-IS. It was my way of making it absolutely clear that they should not trust me. I made the buyer sign it and also made his mom and dad read it. He was 17 years old. Guess what they did? They had me fly it 5 miles to the nearest A&P and they paid for an inspection. It passed with flying colors. After he paid for the plane I was asked to fly it to his home field about 2 hours away. I respectfully declined and he hired a CFI pilot who trains in that exact aircraft. He rode along and got some good pointers on the characteristics of that exact aircraft. Smart kid. He went on to go to Embry.

      Am I accusing the owner of anything? No. Am I accusing the seller of anything? No. However, whether purchasing a car or an aircraft, it seemed to me to be common sense to do a pre-buy and time in a shop. I do feel bad for the people killed but we all MUST take pilot in command seriously. Those innocent souls that fly with you expect you to take their safety seriously. There has been more than one occasion that I have declined to take a passenger up because I didn't feel good. There have been many times I have pushed my plane back into the hangar due to a final weather decision. Planes crash and people die every year in Tahoe. It is very unforgiving. When I flew with Vance he made two weather decisions, one before we took off and one while I was at the controls. I understood his reasoning despite my intense desire to fly over the beaches I had visited for five years while in college.

      Thank you again Vance for your voice of reason. Some people simply cannot grasp the concept of responsibility for ones actions (or in-actions) and it seems to be an ever increasing aspect of our culture that I find very disappointing.
      Nicely reasoned and written Tim.

      You nicely stepped around the snarky pontifications and offered some useful advice based on reality and experience.
      Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

      Comment


      • I have made a decision to refrain from responding to a certain member. Members and visitors have a well documented alternative viewpoint in all the various threads.

        Comment


        • However, whether purchasing a car or an aircraft, it seemed to me to be common sense to do a pre-buy and time in a shop.
          In effect, that's what Darren Mahler thought he was doing when, according to the newspaper he had N5002E trailered to Brewton, AL for an inspection by an RAF expert.
          Had Fritts done honest work on N5002E, then Mahler wouldn't have risked his life with compromised control system parts.

          Taking a gyro to the average FW A&P probably isn't going to be entirely effective, as they don't know gyros, and certainly not RAFs.
          Vance then had the astonishing (and perhaps unintended) gall to blame Mahler for not having a thorough bre-buy from an A&P would have likely missed the compromised part.


          Am I accusing the owner of anything? No. Am I accusing the seller of anything? No.
          Echoes of the teacher from the student . . .


          _________
          Yes; in my opinion your version is not credible and does not fit the definition of probable cause.
          Well, Vance, that's interesting because it was not my own version.

          I merely inserted Doug Riley's N5002E comment after the NTSB's "
          due to an undetected preexisting corrosion-induced crack".
          But you knows better.


          In my opinion the value of the report and the discussion is to think about such things, imagine the possibilities and learn how to be safer pilots.
          Yeah? What do you imagine the next RAF newbie can learn from what you've contributed to this discussion?
          That he should take his potential RAF purchase to an A&P, who will likely not replace a corroded (and cracked) control rod end?
          That his broker CFI who should have done so in accordance with RAF's 200 Hour Inspection won't be held accountable?
          That everyone preceding him in the safety chain will fail him, yet the gyro community will nonetheless lay this in his lap because he was PIC on the last flight?


          I feel condemning or blaming someone detracts from the process,
          I don't, if that someone were actually culpable.

          Had Dofin Fritts actually performed -- as he signed off that he did -- RAF's 200 Hour Inspection (which includes replacing all the control rod ends),
          then Darren Mahler would not have died that day.


          Had Chris Brupbacher actually performed an annual inspection in the scope and detail required by Part 43, Appendix D, he would have at least removed
          any visibly corroded control rod ends for inspection. In an annual inspection, things are taken apart, removed, and looked over. Brupbacher avoided doing so.
          It was a sham sign-off.


          In my opinion the control rod end either broke in flight or on impact; I simply donít know.
          That's not an opinion at all, like saying that X event either happened at night or during the day. It's just mush, and typical of you.

          Back in October 2014 you at least admitted that RAF's parts "
          appeared to me to be poor quality spherical rod ends" but today you argue with me the opposite.

          Back in 2011 about Dofin Fritts you remarked "
          In my opinion an instructor who has an unusually high number of dead students has a creditably [sic] challenge and it is very relevant to any saftey discussion." Today, however, you excoriate me for my "vendetta" against Fritts for his students comprising 40% of the dead RAF pilots.

          You have by now consistently shown a bizarre pattern of disagreeing with yourself in order to disagree with me.

          You "
          don't know" what happened to N5002E? In my opinion you don't want to know, else you'd have a responsibility to act upon that knowledge.

          What I am objecting to, and what I have objected to since Oct 2014, is that newbie gyro owners be held to higher standards than gyro CFIs who broker junky used aircraft.

          I have proven that Dofin Fritts rubberstamps maintenance logbooks of gyros not his own, and that people have relied upon his signature to their severe detriment.
          Nobody here seems to give a sh*t, and yet some marvel that I'm "
          snarky" about it?

          Well, I'm tired of the fork-tongued, double-standards treatment I've experienced here.
          I've decided to do something about it to protect myself on this forum.

          I will become a Gyro CFI.

          Kolibri
          Last edited by Kolibri; 09-29-2018, 09:36 AM.
          PP - ASEL complex (Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, SC2), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

          Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

          "
          When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

          Comment


          • In my opinion based on my experience a good A&P mechanic can do a good annual condition.

            Not all A&P mechanics are good so some care must be taken in choosing the best one.

            If you live in the USA go on the NTSB website and read about gyroplane accidents and think about what may have happened and what you can do to keep from becoming an NTSB report. Be aware that often the people writing the report may not be technically astute about gyroplanes.

            For those with poor reading comprehension a brief summary:

            I don't know what happened.

            I don't know when the control rod end broke and it may not have been the cause of the accident.

            Despite what some people claim wind affects gyroplanes and the weather can be radically different just ten miles away. What you feel on the ground may not be what you will experience 500 feet above the ground. I am at El Mirage dry lake and the winds are out of the west at about seven knots. At Sothern California Logistics (VCV) just 11 miles to the east winds are 150 degrees at 23kts gusting to 37kts.

            The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

            Mahler was not authorized to take passengers.

            Sometimes things just go wrong no matter how careful we are.

            Some pilots don't understand the most basic concepts and pretend they do.

            Flying experimental amateur built gyroplanes is dangerous and requires vigilance and effort to mitigate that risk.

            Good training reduces the risk but does not eliminate it.
            Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

            Comment


            • I should clarify my case. I took four days off from work and participated in the first annual of my new 75 year old plane. When I took it back for a new brake system, I was there again helping. If an service shop will not let you work along side the certified mechanic, you have the wrong shop. It wasn't a matter of trust for me. It was a matter of learning my aircraft. There is no substitute to BUILDING your own aircraft. I look forward to building my kit in December and knowing every nut and bolt on it. Builder's assist improves you odds of long term success. Look at the $4000 to $5000 cost as money well spent on learning all about your aircraft. Do not pay anyone else do do any of the builder's assist without you present. You are giving up a golden opportunity. Make time, spend the money to travel, and take as long as it takes you at your pace.

              Comment


              • In my opinion based on my experience a good A&P mechanic can do a good annual condition.
                And then at the same time you write things like, "I have seen more corroded rod ends on many gyroplanes that have had condition inspections by A&P mechanics"
                and "There are mechanics I respect who would not have replaced [those] rod ends for corrosion".

                I do not consider missing an already fractured and deeply corroded control rod -- a non-airworthy flight critical part -- as permissible in a "good annual condition".

                Are you truly unaware how often you contradict yourself, even concurrently within the same thread?


                I don't know when the control rod end broke and it may not have been the cause of the accident.
                Fine, everyone can say that same thing. However, we're dealing with "probable cause".
                Your version relies upon unseen (and unseeable from the ground) phenomena such as wind shear or PIOs or PPO.
                I, however, am sticking with the more rational and provable PC established by the NTSB.

                On this point, Bryan Cobb in the N5002E thread made a valuable observation:


                Here's what I can contribute based on my being the investigating officer in almost 1500 traffic accidents:

                1) Witness reports are rarely reliable unless physical evidence corroborates their statements.

                2) Physical evidence never lies.

                3) I would not conclude that the blades "folded" in flight, based on a witness report unless I had concrete physical evidence
                that proved that happened at a specific time in the sequence of events.
                The physical evidence of the previously fractured/corroded rod end cannot be easily dismissed or minimized, as you've tried to do.
                You've attempted to pass off the corrosion as the result of the wreckage being submerged for a day, even though other broken rod ends did not also begin to rust.

                I'm not buying it. I've seen and handled the wreckage. You haven't.
                Rather than wind shear, etc. the more likely scenario is that the control rod end broke in flight, and in doing so N5002E became uncontrollable and chopped its own tail.



                go on the NTSB website and read about gyroplane accidents and think about what may have happened and what you can do to keep from becoming an NTSB report.
                Yes, and here's one the larger morals of the N5002E story: never buy a used RAF from or through Dofin Fritts.
                Whether because of venality or apathy, he simply cannot be trusted.
                One should suspect any of his maintenance logbook entries, and personally double-check his alleged work.
                That alone will significantly raise an RAF newbie's odds of survival.



                For those with poor reading comprehension a brief summary:

                Despite what some people claim wind affects gyroplanes and the weather can be radically different just ten miles away.

                Some pilots don't understand the most basic concepts and pretend they do.
                You seem to nearly always insert such digs.
                Not only are they often fake straw-men arguments, they are snotty.

                I know that wind affects gyros. I know that weather can vary greatly from just a few miles away.
                I never claimed otherwise.
                What I did do was disagree with you that wind and weather were likely more of a probable cause than mechanical failure.
                However, you seem to often conflate disagreement with ignorance vs. a mere difference of opinion.



                Sometimes things just go wrong no matter how careful we are.
                That's not the correct lesson here, because key people in the chain were not careful.

                I suspect that Mahler performed as well of a pre-flight as Fritts had trained him for.
                I believe that Mahler did all that he knew how to do.

                But, if Fritts did not care enough to replace the corroded rod ends, and his own twenty CFI PIC pre-flights did not discover the cracked one,
                perhaps you could get off Mahler's case for also missing what Fritts missed -- and what your "
                respected" A&Ps would have missed.

                Regards,
                Kolibri
                PP - ASEL complex (Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, SC2), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

                Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

                "
                When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                Comment


                • Will you guys stop already! Damn, if I wanted to watch Jerry Springer I would stay home and turn on the TV. Every damn thread on this forum has people arguing with each other, and it seems to be the same few people. Discussions are fine, but when it turns into personal attacks, that's when everyone needs to look at themselves and wonder if they should really be posting this stuff in public.
                  Bobby Munroe
                  Private Pilot (SEL)
                  PRA Chapter 62 #42748
                  EAA #1160523

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by AirCommandPilot View Post
                    Will you guys stop already! Damn, if I wanted to watch Jerry Springer I would stay home and turn on the TV. Every damn thread on this forum has people arguing with each other, and it seems to be the same few people. Discussions are fine, but when it turns into personal attacks, that's when everyone needs to look at themselves and wonder if they should really be posting this stuff in public.
                    Geez, I agree. You 3 or4 people share your phone numbers with each other and argue directly.

                    smiles,
                    Charles

                    Comment


                    • When two people have died, and a gyro CFI challenges the NTSB probable cause for the crash, I think the topic should bear whatever it needs to.

                      Besides, nobody is forcing anybody else to read this thread.

                      But I appreciate your input and patience, thanks.

                      Safe flying, Kolibri
                      Last edited by Kolibri; 10-01-2018, 01:18 PM.
                      PP - ASEL complex (Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, SC2), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

                      Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

                      "
                      When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kolibri View Post


                        Besides, nobody is forcing anybody else to read this thread.
                        That's just it though. If you want people to view the thread to get the right info they'll have to sift through all of the bile to find it. Loads of good info here gets covered in **** to often.
                        Bobby Munroe
                        Private Pilot (SEL)
                        PRA Chapter 62 #42748
                        EAA #1160523

                        Comment


                        • Well, if it's any consolation, I supsect that the main "sparticipants" (my term, lol) have by now fully expressed themselves.
                          PP - ASEL complex (Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, SC2), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

                          Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

                          "
                          When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by AirCommandPilot View Post
                            Will you guys stop already! Damn, if I wanted to watch Jerry Springer I would stay home and turn on the TV. Every damn thread on this forum has people arguing with each other, and it seems to be the same few people. Discussions are fine, but when it turns into personal attacks, that's when everyone needs to look at themselves and wonder if they should really be posting this stuff in public.
                            You are one of the people whose posts I always enjoy and learn from Bobby; I take to heart the things you write.

                            I have not learned to ignore what I feel are dangerous posts.

                            Too many times I have seen completely wrong information become accepted because no one pointed out it was wrong.

                            I have learned a lot in more than 2,000 hours of flying gyroplanes and I have learned a lot as a CFI.

                            Part of what I try to teach is a thoughtful approach aviation safety.

                            I have learned you can't get there if you think you have all the answers.

                            I need to give the participants in the Rotary Wing Forum more credit for being able to sift through the misinformation.

                            I try to keep it simple and on point but apparently I have failed at that.

                            I don't know what happened to N5002E.

                            I won't learn as much if I imagine I do.

                            Lots of things can cause a gyroplane accident.

                            Pilots are safer when they think about safety and consider what they could do better in their own program.

                            I have learned from this thread.

                            I will start a thread about localized weather in Training and hope that the bile doesn't follow me there.
                            Last edited by Vance; 10-02-2018, 09:10 AM.
                            Regards, Vance Breese Gyroplane CFI http://www.breeseaircraft.com/

                            Comment


                            • "I will start a thread about localized weather"

                              I almost started a new thread on wind shear yesterday. Please take the lead Vance. I think many of us are interested in the topic.

                              Comment


                              • An annual inspection, well performed by a conscientious A&P or Builder, should be expected to remove
                                flight-critical control rod ends for further examination if they show significant surface corrosion.

                                In my opinion, not to expect such creates dangerously low expectations for an annual inspection.
                                That is not a safe doctrine to preach.

                                The cracked rod end of N5002E could have been caught before sale, and should have been during its annual.

                                Even if the rod end did not fail in flight that day, it would have failed later.

                                Regards,
                                Kolibri
                                PP - ASEL complex (Piper 180, C206, RV-7A), SP - Gyro (Calidus, RAF, SC2), soloed in gliders; checkride soon

                                Wasn't happy with my RAF's pitch instability, so I installed a Boyer H-Stab to my great satisfaction!

                                "
                                When an honest but mistaken man learns of his error, he either ceases to be mistaken -- or he ceases to be honest."

                                Comment

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