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Transponders for Dummies.....me. Need explanation please.

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  • Transponders for Dummies.....me. Need explanation please.

    So I see a lot of information about adding ADSB to an aircraft that already has a Mode S transponder. I do not have any transponder yet would like to become compliant by 2020. I live and fly within Class B airspace, I know I am supposed to have Mode C but I do not. So is there an extremely compact reasonably inexpensive way to add all 3 in a single upgrade. Remember for dummies..no jargon, no assumptions about what I am supposed to know please.

    If not is there an efficient way to add Mode S with adsb, starting from no transponder.

  • Tyger
    replied
    FAA just put out this FAQ yesterday: https://www.faasafety.gov/spans/noti....aspx?nid=8053

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  • WaspAir
    replied
    Garmin is offering low prices temporarily; I just got a GTX 335 for my Bell helicopter that slides into the old transponder panel space, is a complete ADS-B out/ transponder solution, and is under $3000 with WAAS antenna at most retailers (check Gulf Coast or Pacific Avionics, for example).

    Leave a comment:


  • Joe Pires
    replied
    ruh roh https://uavionix.com/news/ hope this does not stop them from bringing this solution to market.

    Leave a comment:


  • Joe Pires
    replied
    Probably Post #5

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  • Tyger
    replied
    So what's your plan? :)

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  • Joe Pires
    replied
    Thank you all for these insights. I think I have a plan.

    Leave a comment:


  • eutrophicated1
    replied
    "
    Hueychief

    Hueychief replied
    09-07-2018, 12:27 AM
    Transponders come in 4 basic flavors.

    You're so right, chief, I'm also a "master computer systems engineer", with specialties in 5 major programming languages, 5 operating systems and DBA on 4 major DBMS's , and I can throw a boatload of acronyms on you in a heartbeat. Yet I'm also experienced enough to know the importance of proper documentation practices on all this stuff. Hence my continuing efforts to improve the "Gremminger" terms and acronym file.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tyger
    replied
    Originally posted by Uncle Willie View Post

    Transponders come in 4 basic flavors.

    Mode A ... Squawk and IDENT.
    Mode C ... Mode A Plus Altitude.
    Mode S ... Mode C Plus TCAS Collision Info, ICAO Code.
    Mode ES ... Mode S Plus ADS-B (Extended Squitter)

    Modes C, S, and ES all meet the requirements of Mode C.

    You can't buy a new Mode A Transponder anymore, so any Transponder will meet the Basic Mode C requirements for Class B airspace today.

    The ADS-B OUT function is an extension of the TCAS Collision avoidance system.
    To meet the minimum ADSB requirements you will need to transmit basic Mode C plus UAT ADS-B out Data ... Or Mode ES which incorporates the ADS-B Out Data.

    The Mode C or ES transmission is the beacon that allows other aircraft to see your location.
    You are not required to receive the ADS-B data but without it, you will be blind in seeing approaching traffic or weather.

    Mode C or better will allow Airliner TCAS systems to alert the pilots to your presence.

    Basic mode C will only inform a TCAS equipped aircraft that you are within a specified mile range.
    Your Altitude will be known but your direction will not. "Traffic 2 miles, 5700 ft."
    The distance is based on how strong a signal is received Air-to-Air, so it is not very accurate.
    2 miles could be anything between 1 and 4 miles.

    ADS-B will allow everyone to know what everyone else is doing in great detail.
    "Propeller Traffic, 11 o'Clock, 2 miles, SouthWestBound, Descend through 5700 ft. at 70 kts."
    Some additional info re the above: There are two possibilities for ADS-B "Out". It can be broadcast on either 978 MHz UAT (using TCAS) or 1090 MHz (ES) via a transponder. Mode ES just uses 1090 MHz. Ground stations pick up ES "Out" signals; these stations then rebroadcast the data for ADS-B "In" on aircraft so equipped. My understanding is that 1090 ES "Out" data does NOT go air-to-air, except to TCAS aircraft that have been modified to also process 1090 ES signals. So, two Mode ES equipped aircraft will NOT "see" each other unless they both have ADS-B "In" AND are close enough to a ground station to receive "In" data therefrom. Also, ground stations usually only broadcast the data for "In" when they are actually receiving "Out" data from aircraft in the area.

    Importantly, to meet the "Out" requirements for a GPS source, your GPS receiver must be permanently installed (i.e. not a portable), and also be WAAS enabled. That is, the satellite position information must augmented by WAAS ground reference stations (https://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/waas.html)

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  • HighAltitude
    replied
    Yes, awesome info. I need to print that one out.

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  • Hueychief
    replied
    Transponders come in 4 basic flavors.

    Mode A ... Squawk and IDENT.
    Mode C ... Mode A Plus Altitude.
    Mode S ... Mode C Plus TCAS Collision Info, ICAO Code.
    Mode ES ... Mode S Plus ADS-B (Extended Squitter)

    Modes C, S, and ES all meet the requirements of Mode C.

    You can't buy a new Mode A Transponder anymore, so any Transponder will meet the Basic Mode C requirements for Class B airspace today.

    The ADS-B OUT function is an extension of the TCAS Collision avoidance system.
    To meet the minimum ADSB requirements you will need to transmit basic Mode C plus UAT ADS-B out Data ... Or Mode ES which incorporates the ADS-B Out Data.

    The Mode C or ES transmission is the beacon that allows other aircraft to see your location.
    You are not required to receive the ADS-B data but without it, you will be blind in seeing approaching traffic or weather.

    Mode C or better will allow Airliner TCAS systems to alert the pilots to your presence.

    Basic mode C will only inform a TCAS equipped aircraft that you are within a specified mile range.
    Your Altitude will be known but your direction will not. "Traffic 2 miles, 5700 ft."
    The distance is based on how strong a signal is received Air-to-Air, so it is not very accurate.
    2 miles could be anything between 1 and 4 miles.

    ADS-B will allow everyone to know what everyone else is doing in great detail.
    "Propeller Traffic, 11 o'Clock, 2 miles, SouthWestBound, Descend through 5700 ft. at 70 kts."
    Awesome info Bill!
    I learned more from that than sifting thru reams of online classes, but watch out for the acronym nazi. His shuffleboard game might be over and his computer time reinstated. :-)

    Leave a comment:


  • Uncle Willie
    replied
    Originally posted by Joe Pires View Post
    Actually my question includes that I am flying in airspace that requires a Mod C Transponder.
    So I meant to ask if it was not clear on how to become fully compliant.
    Transponders come in 4 basic flavors.

    Mode A ... Squawk and IDENT.
    Mode C ... Mode A Plus Altitude.
    Mode S ... Mode C Plus TCAS Collision Info, ICAO Code.
    Mode ES ... Mode S Plus ADS-B (Extended Squitter)

    Modes C, S, and ES all meet the requirements of Mode C.

    You can't buy a new Mode A Transponder anymore, so any Transponder will meet the Basic Mode C requirements for Class B airspace today.

    The ADS-B OUT function is an extension of the TCAS Collision avoidance system.
    To meet the minimum ADSB requirements you will need to transmit basic Mode C plus UAT ADS-B out Data ... Or Mode ES which incorporates the ADS-B Out Data.

    The Mode C or ES transmission is the beacon that allows other aircraft to see your location.
    You are not required to receive the ADS-B data but without it, you will be blind in seeing approaching traffic or weather.

    Mode C or better will allow Airliner TCAS systems to alert the pilots to your presence.

    Basic mode C will only inform a TCAS equipped aircraft that you are within a specified mile range.
    Your Altitude will be known but your direction will not. "Traffic 2 miles, 5700 ft."
    The distance is based on how strong a signal is received Air-to-Air, so it is not very accurate.
    2 miles could be anything between 1 and 4 miles.

    ADS-B will allow everyone to know what everyone else is doing in great detail.
    "Propeller Traffic, 11 o'Clock, 2 miles, SouthWestBound, Descend through 5700 ft. at 70 kts."









    Leave a comment:


  • Joe Pires
    replied
    Actually my question includes that I am flying in airspace that requires a Mod C Transponder. So I meant to ask if it was not clear on how to become fully compliant.

    Leave a comment:


  • Uncle Willie
    replied
    Originally posted by eutrophicated1 View Post
    I'm really glad that all those who replied to the request for information listened so well. I had to duck out of the forum for a while so I wouldn't be hit by flying acronyms and sundry jargon. You all did see that Joe specifically requested, "No Jargon", right?
    Yes, we saw that.
    Just asking about ADSB is using the jargon.
    It would be unreasonable to ask everyone to type "Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast" every time they referred to ADSB which is properly abbreviated "ADS-B".

    Explaining what ADSB is and how it works could easily require a few thousand words just to get through the basics.
    All of this information is already available from a multitude of sources on the internet.
    We like Joe, but he is going to need to at least get himself up to speed on ADSB by doing a little research on his own.

    This is like wanting to build your own GPS receiver from scratch asking how GPS works in simple enough terms so that anyone could understand it.
    GPS and ADSB are not simple systems and there is not going to be a simple answer.

    His summary question was, "... is there an efficient way to add ... ADSB, starting from no transponder."?

    This is the information, in as simple a form as we can get it to, that he is being provided.

    Joe,
    Do want a bare minimum but legal ADSB OUT only system, No traffic, No weather?
    Or do you also want ADSB IN with the additional data available in flight?

    The ECHO ESX will meet all the ADSB requirements, a Mode ES Transponder (ADSB Out) plus UAT ADSB-IN.
    It is currently in "Coming Soon" status. Not yet available.
    Last edited by Uncle Willie; 09-07-2018, 08:49 AM.

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  • Joe Pires
    replied
    I have been flying in Mode C area for a decade without one....so I can wait months easily..but am I right that the ECHO ESX will not meet the requirement for mode C?

    Leave a comment:

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