High Time = High Skill?

ToddP · #1 11-20-2003, 02:47 AM

There have been some great (sometimes heated) discussion lately regarding aerobatics etc..  Here's some food for conversation: It seems that many of the gyro fatalities involve ATP rated pilots, some with thousands of hours and many years of flying behind them.   In my humble opinion - I don't think being a high time airline pilot is any advantage when transitioning to Gyro's.  No doubt they are teachable, but I don't think they possess the skills automatically because they fly big planes. Here is my reasoning, take two pilots: 1.  Guy with 20,000 hours.  Graduated from college, became an air force officer, has never flown anything with less than two engines.  Flies airlines for 15 years, has a spotless safety record.  He is really good at:  Emergency procedures, checklists and weather knowledge. 2.  Our other guy:  500 hours, has flown all kinds of tube and fabric, ultralight, fixed wing, he'll fly just about anything.  Taught himself how to fly many different aircraft including taildraggers.  At this point he doesn't even have his pilots license.  His weather knowledge and procedural knowledge is pretty poor. So who is the better candidate to learn gyros.  No doubt they both could safely.  But personally, I think the unlicensed guy is way ahead of the airline pilot.   One other contributing factor may be economic.  Airline pilots make lots of money.  As a result they buy the shiniest, slickest, best marketed machine out there, unfortunately its called the RAF 2000. Lets hear what you have to say.  My skin is thick so you won't hurt my feelings, remember this is just my opinion. Todd

GyroRon · #2 11-20-2003, 03:36 AM

Todd..... Am I your un licensed pilot in the example? ;D If so you need to use someone else. I am soloed and go to take the written Friday morning. I think I will do at least a 90 on it - taking the king knowledge test couse CD-ROM at home here and have gone through it once so far and am scoring in the high 80's to low 90's on my practice exams - And I have about 9 more of dual and a few more solo to do and then it is time for the Checkride. Hopefully I will become a PILOT soon :P

Screw · #3 11-20-2003, 04:34 AM

Ron, I don't know how to break this to you. Airline and Military pilots all start out in singles (Cessna types) and put lots of hours in them before transition from one type to another type to another type until finally, they can fly Co-pilot for a cargo plane full of rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong.  Attrition, competiveness and politics I think makes the captains. Also, I believe their Academics begin with Icarus and Datilus and continues until they are dead. Your still behind the curve, but if it makes you feel better, well.  I don't know what would make you feel better. All is MHO and yes I exadurated a tad.  But not much. Any Airline pilots/Instructors want to comment? ;D

ToddP · #4 11-20-2003, 05:51 AM

Ron, Actually I was basing my hypothetical guy on a person I know in Spokane, but if you'd like to accept the role....

You can create the character however you want, my only point was, there are some great stick and rudder pilots, that haven't followed the traditional route. John, I'm not so sure about your information.  I personally know two different former military pilots.  One flew KC-135's and now flies For American Airlines, He does not have a single engine rating. The other guy was an army helicopter instructor and flew the military version of King Air's transporting military brass around.  He now works on the Fire Dept. with me, but was doing some commercial cargo flying locally.  He was not rated to fly single engine planes. Those are the two examples I was drawing from. Todd

PW_Plack · #5 11-20-2003, 06:12 AM

Hey, Ron, keep up the good work! There are a couple of great web-based test dry-runs: http://www.sportys.com/faatest/ *...has both tests and a "study buddy." http://www.mywrittenexam.com *...has a feature which can automatically e-mail results to your instructor. You don't have to turn that part on! Taking either test requires you to have the apendices with charts and other graphics, which can either be downloaded and printed, or found in the back of study guides such as ASA. The on-line tests use the actual FAA question pool, and will give you a good prediction of how well you'll do. Will you be getting the ASEL or Rotorcraft / Gyroplane certificate? (I'm guessing fixed-wing.)

Aussie_Paul · #6 11-20-2003, 07:01 AM

Todd, I would expect the 500 hour pilot would be easier to teach, and would probably be more teachable, although all sorts of people from all walks of life are "know it alls and or over confident" and difficult to train. I just love teaching the guy who is passionate and who has flown tinnies but because of family raising etc has not flown for 10 or 15 years. If they had previously flown gliders that makes it even better. The attitude of the student has the largest bearing on how quickly they will learn. Gyros have the ability to make boys out of men when they are over confident and try too hard to control the gyro!!!!!!!!!! Particularly one that has some pitch instability. Aussie Paul.

Chuck_Ellsworth · #7 11-20-2003, 08:47 AM

All things being equal the easiest person to teach how to fly a gyroplane would be the zero time person rather than the very high time airline pilot. They are two completely different skills.. the high time airline pilot will be working with built in reflexes to attitude changes that may not work in a gyro. The above is very simplistic but close. Chuck Ellsworth

GyroRon · #8 11-20-2003, 09:01 AM

I am going for SEL private pilot. May add rotorcraft next, but not to sure yet. Using the King flight schools CD-ROM set and that has a area where you can take sample tests over and over to get a idea what you will do on the real thing. So far I feel I should pass, but working on some areas to get as high of a score as possible. I will update my results after the test.

Aussie_Paul · #9 11-20-2003, 11:50 AM

No Chuck, that is definately not the case in a stable gyroplane, but it certainly was in my pitch unstable trainers. Someone who has some aviation experience only has to be taught how to fly the machine, airmanship as already second nature. Aussie Paul.

Chuck_Ellsworth · #10 11-20-2003, 12:36 PM

Yeh Paul... I agree I was over simplifying it. What I was trying to point out was at least a zero time pilot would not have the reflexes for pitch control that a high time airline pilot would have. But hey, no body is perfect I make lots of mistakes... Take care and hope to see you some day. By the way I have ordered a set of plans from Ron to build a two place Little wing, I just may finally get into the gyro training and have decided to go with a Little Wing...If I live long enough to build it.... Chuck

Screw · #11 11-20-2003, 01:57 PM

;D

jolly467 · #12 11-21-2003, 02:36 AM

Just as a note as one of those former military pilots....it's all about habit transfer / remembering that you are always learning when you are behind the controls of an aircraft - no matter what it is. A perfect example is one I experienced during initial training in PaveHawks (HH-60G) out at Kirtland AFB.. I was a new helo pilot fresh from Fort Rucker, having received my helicopter add on rating through the Army school (RWQS). I had received my pilot rating from the USAF at Columbus MS where I flew T-37's and T-38's. *Note at this point my aviation experience was totally in the military and I had only about 20 hours flying T-41's (C-172). While on a contact ride (Emergency Procedures and general aviating) I was given a simulated single engine fire...I proceeded to "shut down" the affected engine, climbed single engine to pattern altitude and came around to a landing.....at which point my instructor promptly whacked me on the helmet.....I had done EXACTLY what I should of done in a T-38....which at the same point in the flight profile would have been going in excess of 250 KTS and would not have been able to execute a safe landing....of course being in a helicopter,  I was going maybe 40 kts and had plenty of room to land straight ahead! LESSON LEARNED - no matter how HOT of a stick you may think you are - that license you have is a license to LEARN .... ALSO - try to remember what your flying - old habits can die hard!

Steve Wages N658C

Udi · #13 11-21-2003, 07:40 AM

I believe that the following crash report by Greg Gremminger is relevant to this discussion. *This was posted on the Rotorcraft forum on 7/3/2003. ------------------------------------------------------- We regret to confirm that a Magni M-14 did crash and fatally injure Paulo Lintini of Italy. Paulo was a friend of mine and of many people around the world. *Paulo was an experienced aerobatic pilot in both light airplanes and gyroplanes. *He was a 747 Captain for Al Italia airlines who loved his regular flights into New York city. *Paulo had been demonstrating loops and rolls for several years in his single-seat M-13 (an earlier model of Magni single-seat gyro.) * Paulo was flying a borrowed M-14 (2-place, Rotax 914 turbo powered). *He had borrowed this M-14 from his best friend, who had also flown across the Alps in a group of six Magnis from Italy to the event in /France. *Among his close friends in that flight were Pietro and Luca Magni. Reports from experienced gyroplane pilot witnesses, including from a number of his very closest friends give this account. *Paulo had taken off solo in the M-14, turned downwind at a low altitude, and pulled the aircraft up into a vertical attitude. *The aircraft appeared to initially rudder yaw as in a wingover, and fell from this attitude inverted to the ground. *Witnesses said this appeared to be an intentional maneuver, as they could see clearly his hand on the stick pull the stick aft! *It appeared as if Paulo was attempting a wingover maneuver as he might do at this level in fixed-wing aerobatic aircraft. *(His gyro aerobatic maneuvers had never been performed at such low entry altitudes as was observed in this incident.). *There is no evidence that this accident was the result of any pitch instability issue - PIO, PPO, buntover, etc. Paulo was a healthy young man (in his early 40’s I believe). *There is no evidence of a physical issue with this accident. *The M-14, 914 powered had considerably more power than his M-13 that he would normally be flying for aerobatic maneuvers. *Paulo was a VERY experienced gyroplane pilot. *Paulo, with his experience and credentials had been the Safety Pilot at every Magni’s Day event in Italy. *Paulo would conduct extremely organized safety meetings prior to organized events at the Magni flying field. *(At least I think they were organized, a lot of Italian discussion and arm waving and board drawings going on!). As in America, there had been concern about the safety of these maneuvers and the public demonstration of such maneuvers in a gyro - for fear of less experienced pilots emulating this performance! *Vittorio Magni, a long-time close friend of Paulo’s also, was not in agreement with the performance of these maneuvers and had tried to persuade his friend to not do them. *As in America, the right of an individual to make their own decisions was honored. The witnesses can only speculate that Paulo had a moment of confusion about which aircraft he was flying at the time – perhaps contributed to by the very responsive power of the 914 engine in the M-14. *The attempted maneuver would have been similar to what he would have done in his fixed-wing aerobatic maneuvers. (Just the week prior I had witnessed an accomplished Kitfox pilot performing similar wingover maneuvers at low altitude rather easily!). The five pilots following Paulo’s formation lead across the Alps to France, had to return as a flight of five without their friend. *The Magni factory and all Paulo’s friends around the world have been extremely confused and distraught. *Our thoughts have been with Paulo’s friends and family. (FYI – there has been one other fatality in a Magni gyroplane. *A couple of years ago, a pilot in South Africa had failed to secure a bolt in the cyclic control system properly after reassembly. *You can imagine the result!) - Greg Gremminger ----------------------------------------

Chuck_Ellsworth · #14 11-21-2003, 09:54 AM

That last event is very sobering... The human mind is a lot like a CD disk, repeated actions such as the amount of control input to perform a manouver such as a radical wing over in a fixed wing aircraft will become "burned" into the subconsious mind. A moment of inattention when performing the same manouver in a totally different platform such as a gyro with very high rotor drag can result in loss of control before you realize you have miss handeled the manouver. Which reinforces a simple safety rule....do not fly on the limits of your experience / skills level.... Because you can quickly exceed your limits. Chuck E.

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