Designing anything is HARD work...

[rtfm]

Hi,
I've got to say this (I hope there are other designers reading this) but designing something from scratch is DIFFICULT! It takes hours. Days. Weeks. Sitting there, looking, trying to think in 3-D. It's like playing 3-D chess. Imagining what the frame geometry will look like, what will connect to what, where the stresses will be, what the aesthetics will be like (sexiness sells anything, including gyros). I've sat in my humble workshop hours on end, pondering, imagining, building wire models to assist with visualisation. Drunk many litres of beer. And what do I have to show for it? A wire-frame model of a pusher gyro which has a roll-cage requiring only two welds. Sexy? Yes. Functional? Dunno.

What I'm trying to say is that is so easy to criticise something which is out there, but spare a thought for the time, expertise, (sometimes genius) which form the ingredients of our current crop of gyros. These things don't invent themselves...

Regards,
Duncan

[Ga6riel]

Yes it most certainly is!
Where large changes are intended it is of the upmost importance to get the concept right before the pen hits the paper, and consider all of the impacts of those changes. For any changes can mean a degradation of other unseen features. Also that the designer take it easy with the progress of the design by not executing too many changes at once. In this way the design progesses at a rate that is understandable and thorough.

It all gets a bit hazy when a radical new concept is proposed, I cant think of a single aircraft that didnt need some fine tuning of the design, more often than not, there are several prototypes and test beds engendered to allow the evolution to proceed with the knowledge base and skill set.

[Victor Duarte]

Hi Duncan,
i'm in the same process, excepted that i drink many liters of coffee and red wine
yes, creating is a kind of pain and a serie of self-questionning.
just go on.
regards.

ps : you may have seen this before, glad you use solidworks.

[Mike Jackson]

I, too, am working on a new design (new to me, anyway). I often ask myself why.........why not just pick something off the shelf? Well, for starters, it engages the mind. For finishers, it becomes a great sense of pride and accomplishment. There's alot of work in between.

No matter how simple, it is a SYSTEM. Change one thing and the Domino Theory comes to mind. I also find when I come up with a design solution, I back off and ask "is there a more simple elegant way to do this?" KISS is still good.

In the final analysis, Shakespeare said something like "there's nothing new under the sun." Our machines will still have an engine, wings, tails and wheels. Our designs will all reflect "the shoulders of giants" we still stand on. Like people, some designs are better looking than others. What's more important than SEXY (I think?!) is safety, functionality, and performance.

Just my point-O-2

[Vance]

I have comitted design both as a profesional and an amature. For me it is the very fountain of life. When I am not particularly pleased with my situation I can escape it through design. The energy always seems to be there and when I can touch it and see if it works, I feel reborn.

The thing I loved about racing was, if you crossed the finish line first you knew that your particular series of compromises worked best and it didn't matter what anyone else thought.

Comercial design is not so clear. Did they not buy it because I didn't explain it properly and they are not on the level where they can appreciate it or is it just not a better idea?

Design drives the world!

I wish all designers all the success they deserve.

Thank you, Vance

[animal]

Originally Posted by rtfm

Hi,
I've got to say this (I hope there are other designers reading this) but designing something from scratch is DIFFICULT! It takes hours. Days. Weeks. Sitting there, looking, trying to think in 3-D. It's like playing 3-D chess. Imagining what the frame geometry will look like, what will connect to what, where the stresses will be, what the aesthetics will be like (sexiness sells anything, including gyros). I've sat in my humble workshop hours on end, pondering, imagining, building wire models to assist with visualisation. Drunk many litres of beer. And what do I have to show for it? A wire-frame model of a pusher gyro which has a roll-cage requiring only two welds. Sexy? Yes. Functional? Dunno.

What I'm trying to say is that is so easy to criticise something which is out there, but spare a thought for the time, expertise, (sometimes genius) which form the ingredients of our current crop of gyros. These things don't invent themselves...

Regards,
Duncan

Your telling me..here is a pic of a helicopter I designed and built all by my self.
6 years of designing and I ran out of funds before I could get it to fly, did get it light on skids a few times.
It is still around and just sold on vortechs website a few months ago.
I sold the prototype and design rights several years ago to a guy in Pa.

So I know what you mean when you say don't criticise something that is out there. like i said this design was in the makeing for 6 years that that was the second attempt, I designed and started the first prototype in high school. we won't even go into how bad that came out. just say neat yard ornament...lol

[Alan Coats]

I did design work for several years. Now when I see something that doesn't make sense I don't say "Why'd the idiot do that?" I say "I wonder what compromises and requirements caused him to do it that way".

Alan

[animal]

Originally Posted by Alan Coats

I did design work for several years. Now when I see something that doesn't make sense I don't say "Why'd the idiot do that?" I say "I wonder what compromises and requirements caused him to do it that way".

Alan

Biggest thing I learned is I could design it on paper,but makeing the part and makeing it work was alot of times a whole new story. and when it did fit did it hold up to the loads...lots of times not! I have lots of video of parts self destructing. ideas that did not work like chain drives,gear boxs, shafts. like I said 6 year of building,test more building and more testing.
but at least I was haveing fun and learning alot at the same time.

[gs001]

you need to learn AUTOCAD(of course 3-D) first, then you can design and optimize your gyros on computer
3- dimensionally, that is the best way:-)

[Bob]

Critisize Design ! Do it , don't hold back ! because what is Blatently obvious to you may not have been to the Designer !
I'm pointing a finger at myself now.... a While back I designed a tail dragger gyro... it was so obvious to me having the wheels up front would make for a more stable aircraft on the ground ....
I asked attound , no one had any opinions at all... so I said fooie on it I'll build it and see if it works !
I did just that ... and it Was stable on the ground ..up to a point ...and that point was 20 mph.... that is when it wanted to swap ends .... when someone finally said what the prolem was it was so blareingly obvious i don't see how I ever missed it ... but I DID ! .... the design was broken to begin with and NOTHING would fix it .... so I turned my gyro back into a trike and don't have the problem any more ....
if someone would have mentioned the fact that the main landing gear has to be by the center of gravity I may have cought the mistake ... but it never crossed my mind !
..... to this day I still like the design I made ...but because the center of gravity was so far behind the main wheels the craft wanted to make a sharp left turn at 20mph and there was nothing I could do to stop it .... it was so stable that I did at least 4 brodslides on the pavement .... slideing the wheels and leaving skidmarks on the strip ! .... but it didn't flip over...
try that with any gyro design ! but to save the design was impossable given the aircrafts structure ... there was no way to get the com up to the front wheels or the front wheels back to the com ! ..... not that I could figure out anyway !
....
picking appart other designs Keeps us Sharp.... Use it as a tool for learning... its not evil unless used in a milisious way !
instructive critisum is a good thing plane o'l critisum is just plane bad ....
there isn't a design out there anywhere that cannot be improved upon ! ... period !
having a critical eye is good if you use it properly !
...
my 2 coppers !

Bob.......

[Bob]

Gs001 Has a very good point !
I don't use autocad but I use GMAX or Maya... it helps the visulization aspect a big bunch !
I designed my tail drager in Gmax ... probly about 50 times
at least .... adding changes and makeing it as auththentic as possable.... it helped emencely ! and God only knows how much money it saved on wasted meterial ! as I only had to build the real one once... when i got to the point I couldn't improve it any more .... Computers are a valuable tool !
GMAX is a Free down load by the way, do a surch for it and I'm sure you'll find it .
.... an interesting thought just occured to me... the tail drager
design was probly the first design I made that i didn't make a prototype modle of .... perhaps if i had I would have discovered its rather large haing-up !
....hummmm

c ya !
Bob............

[Ga6riel]

Yes Bob your taildragger was a brave attempt, but you got the axle line way too far forward, but I like it anyway.

[Victor Duarte]

I agree, 3D design is a usefull tool for design.
It saves a huge amount of time and money.
It is my job and my last work was to design my own house that i will build in march...

[Vance]

Hello Victor,

You are living a dream that many of us have. I believe you have the talent to do a great job.

I particularly like your use of light and the exterior finish looks very nice in that setting. The building inspectors would make us put a railing on the stairs. Your fire place is lovely, this will provide your daughter with a lot of great memories.

The house that just burned down was designed with north facing dormers and the best view was to the north. The man who designed it loved it and was sad when it burned. I never shared with him that looking through 6 foot tunels detracted from the view.

Thank you, Vance

[Victor Duarte]

Vance,
building a house is very symbolic to me, and you told it : my daughter will have a nice place to live in.
You know i was sad to learn that you house burnt, we put a lot of emotionnal material in them..
I wish god gives me strenght and health to acomplish that.
financially speaking, building my house is an economic choice : if i had to employ a company to build it it would cost me twice the price..
When it will be finished its value will be the double of our loan, that is the way i found to create value with my work..

"The building inspectors would make us put a railing on the stairs"
funny !! yes we will have to put some...but funny, my GF told me "if we were linving in USA, we would be free to do what we want, no railing on the stairs, it's your own responsability"...
you would say "yes but our politicians rule each one of our movements"..and i had to agree...
our best view is also the north, colder but the light is definitely better...
i hope you will re-build a house soon...
Thanks.