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  #16  
Old 07-08-2013, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by -willy- View Post
So at 68 948 euros its 80k USD for a gyro?
http://www.zenogyro.com.au/pricing/
PASS!!!!!!
That is for a new cabin class aircraft, that's cheap if you compare it to a two-place Cessna Skycatcher with a BASE price of 150K? Almost half the price and twice the fun.

You can build a less expensive 2 place open frame kit like Genesis G2sa or Dominator for under $40K depending on the engine selection (cost) and avionics you add.

But they are open frame tandems, great for training and San Diego year around.

http://www.aviomaniausa.com/ProductL...spx?SubCatID=3

http://www.rotorflightdynamicsinc.com/tandem.html

Those two (lease expensive kits) also do not sell 2-place gyroplanes to newbies as Ernie's site says:
"Tandems will only be sold to qualified gyro pilots with at least 150 hrs. logged flight time"
And Aviomania's/Nicolas policy to buy the Genesis 2-place is you have to be signed off by an instructor we know or have 100hrs as pilot in command of a single place.

They both would rather have live customers than the money!!!!

Sportcopter's 2 place is side by side but more expensive that 80K IIRC!
The butterfly I think is about 50K+?

The cheapest way is to buy a used one and tear it apart inspect it for cracks, scratches in holes etc and replace all the bolts with new in IMHO.
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Last edited by All_In; 07-08-2013 at 12:32 PM.
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  #17  
Old 07-08-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by -willy- View Post
You can get the Cavalon or the Calidus out of Utah through these guys.
http://www.airgyro.com/gyroplanes.htm
(not a rep, just some guy browsing the web).
There is also an Auto-Gyro (Germany) rep in Maryland, see autogyrousa.com
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  #18  
Old 07-08-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Fly Army View Post
Even if you could I doubt you could get one in the U.S.
I think it doesn't apply to Fred, who started the thread,
he wants it for Kenya.
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  #19  
Old 07-08-2013, 12:45 PM
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Thanks, though my name is not Fred, it's Matthew, I just run the site for Eric Clutton's FRED homebuilt airplane.

I am not surprised at the cost of the factory-built gyros, and I agree that compared to a Cessna 162 Skycatcher even an Orion is a good deal, a Cavalon is a bargain and a Xenon/Zen1 is a steal. I am bit disappointed to see that no one seems to be aiming at the low end of the spectrum with a modern, two-seat design with the performance and stability of the brands we've been talking about. The U.S. manufacturers, I am sorry to say, seem like relics of a bygone era, still selling designs that seem straight of the Bensen days. Or, like Groen and Carter, they seem to see gyros as a stepping stone to something more ambitious. No one seems interested in producing the Model T or the Volkswagen of modern gyros. And, while I know the purists will moan, I think an affordable, enclosed, side-by-side model would attract more people to this type of aircraft.

What we need is a simple, safe design that takes advantage of modern design practices and is sold in kit form with just the most critical components--rotor hub, blades, balancing--done at the factory and the rest more like a traditional airplane kit. The Best Off SkyRanger in France and the Sonex in the USA are just two of many examples of safe, simple aircraft that can be built for the price of a nice family car instead of a Porsche 911. Either of those can be built and flown, all in, for US$30-$50k. Where is the equivalent gyro?
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  #20  
Old 07-08-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cluttonfred View Post
I just run the site for Eric Clutton's FRED homebuilt airplane.
Just to let you know ( off topic, sorry) FRED here in the USA in train nomenclature has a bit of insult. The loss of the caboose has resulted in the FRED. The F***ing Rear End Device.
--------------------------------------------------
To get back onto subject. I too wondered why it was that gyro technology has bothered only to seek the high end market.

Rather than get more money through the lower price of the common consumer.
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  #21  
Old 07-08-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cluttonfred View Post
Thanks, though my name is not Fred, it's Matthew, I just run the site for Eric Clutton's FRED homebuilt airplane.

I am not surprised at the cost of the factory-built gyros, and I agree that compared to a Cessna 162 Skycatcher even an Orion is a good deal, a Cavalon is a bargain and a Xenon/Zen1 is a steal. I am bit disappointed to see that no one seems to be aiming at the low end of the spectrum with a modern, two-seat design with the performance and stability of the brands we've been talking about. The U.S. manufacturers, I am sorry to say, seem like relics of a bygone era, still selling designs that seem straight of the Bensen days. Or, like Groen and Carter, they seem to see gyros as a stepping stone to something more ambitious. No one seems interested in producing the Model T or the Volkswagen of modern gyros. And, while I know the purists will moan, I think an affordable, enclosed, side-by-side model would attract more people to this type of aircraft.

What we need is a simple, safe design that takes advantage of modern design practices and is sold in kit form with just the most critical components--rotor hub, blades, balancing--done at the factory and the rest more like a traditional airplane kit. The Best Off SkyRanger in France and the Sonex in the USA are just two of many examples of safe, simple aircraft that can be built for the price of a nice family car instead of a Porsche 911. Either of those can be built and flown, all in, for US$30-$50k. Where is the equivalent gyro?
The US market is made up of mostly builder types and as it has grow up from the Bensen era many want to "Be The Bird" and not experience flight in the belly of the bird like I do while flying my FW aircraft.
The manufactures are building to what the current market is demanding in the USA.

There is an entirely untapped market for European style gyroplanes but it has much more competition in the states because our fleet of used FW aircraft is so large that it is much cheaper to buy a used 4 place FW that's flies faster for about 50K or much less!
That coupled with the longer distances we travel/fly in a FW is a much better choice than slower rotorcraft is in smaller countries in Europe without a large fleet of used FW aircraft all competing for your traveling dollars.

In the US I feel the customer really have to just want a rotorcraft to justify the higher cost, less passenger and useful load capacity, less range, and slower travel times!

I have cabin class FW aircraft I wish to get out of the cabin like the movie "Those magnificent men in there flying machines" and BE THE BIRD! So NO CABIN FOR ME and much of the rest of the US market feels that way too I suspect?!!!

There are different tools one uses it to travel and the most of the US uses it to play = yank and bank, and FW to travel?
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Last edited by All_In; 07-08-2013 at 01:50 PM.
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  #22  
Old 07-08-2013, 02:03 PM
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But I really liked the "Magnificent Men and Their Flying Machines".

Granted there were no gyro planes
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  #23  
Old 07-08-2013, 03:24 PM
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John, I agree with you up to a point, and it's certain that the RVs are competing with the used spam cans, but the success of companies like Sonex, Just Aircraft (Highlander) and others means that there is still a U.S. market for more modest aspirations and lower, slower, simpler flying.

I suppose it comes down to a breakdown of the costs involved. I've attached the current worksheet that Sonex provides to estimate total project cost of their various models. Using that as a guide, the Jabiru 3300 costs about the same as a Rotax 912ULS, so the comparison would hold for a homebuilt "European-style" enclosed, two-seat gyro. A 914 would be $10,000 more, an aftermarket turbo just a few thousand more.

So the question is, does a gyro airframe alone--separate from engine, prop, instruments, etc. but including the rotor hub and blades, pre-assembled and balanced at the factory--have to cost much more than the $15,000 for the Sonex airframe? Couldn't it cost less? And if all that is true, why isn't anyone offering such a beastie?
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  #24  
Old 07-08-2013, 04:04 PM
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Default Rotary Flight Dynamics & Aviomania.

Hello Matthew, I went to the Rotary Flight Dynamics web page and it appears that a Dominator is in the price range you are asking for.

http://www.rotorflightdynamicsinc.com/

I suspect that Aviomania is in your price range as well.

http://www.aviomania.com/galery.htm

Thank you, Vance
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  #25  
Old 07-08-2013, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cluttonfred View Post
John, I agree with you up to a point, and it's certain that the RVs are competing with the used spam cans, but the success of companies like Sonex, Just Aircraft (Highlander) and others means that there is still a U.S. market for more modest aspirations and lower, slower, simpler flying.

I suppose it comes down to a breakdown of the costs involved. I've attached the current worksheet that Sonex provides to estimate total project cost of their various models. Using that as a guide, the Jabiru 3300 costs about the same as a Rotax 912ULS, so the comparison would hold for a homebuilt "European-style" enclosed, two-seat gyro. A 914 would be $10,000 more, an aftermarket turbo just a few thousand more.

So the question is, does a gyro airframe alone--separate from engine, prop, instruments, etc. but including the rotor hub and blades, pre-assembled and balanced at the factory--have to cost much more than the $15,000 for the Sonex airframe? Couldn't it cost less? And if all that is true, why isn't anyone offering such a beastie?
I see. Your right too about RV's and all the new cheap FW LSA's too.

The problem is the volume is so low you have to charge more per unit and R&D and upgrades for problems found have on going costs associated to them most business do not have. The price has to be higher for months when you sell nothing?

The market is very small and gyroplanes have a bad reputation in the states.
Currently the largest market is the low income entry level. = Buy a used Bensen type for 10 to 15K. Hard to talk many into even the new modern gyroplane kits that cost about 20+K!

If ArrowCoper GAVE me a demo model to fly to all the FW fly-in's and off-road and track races like Baja 500, and NASCAR etc. With direct marketing like that and showing up at all the TV stations like Bensen did you could create a market, in my opinion, but it will always have competition to FW until the used fleet is grounded.

We'll see... for now I represent Aviomania as the US agent however if a client needs are better suited to a different manufacture then I'll send them to ArrowCopter etc to meet there needs. If a market develops for these types I will try and carry the winners too if allowed.
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Last edited by All_In; 07-08-2013 at 04:14 PM.
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  #26  
Old 07-08-2013, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cluttonfred View Post
Thanks, though my name is not Fred, it's Matthew, I just run the site for Eric Clutton's FRED homebuilt airplane.

I am not surprised at the cost of the factory-built gyros, and I agree that compared to a Cessna 162 Skycatcher even an Orion is a good deal, a Cavalon is a bargain and a Xenon/Zen1 is a steal. I am bit disappointed to see that no one seems to be aiming at the low end of the spectrum with a modern, two-seat design with the performance and stability of the brands we've been talking about. The U.S. manufacturers, I am sorry to say, seem like relics of a bygone era, still selling designs that seem straight of the Bensen days. Or, like Groen and Carter, they seem to see gyros as a stepping stone to something more ambitious. No one seems interested in producing the Model T or the Volkswagen of modern gyros. And, while I know the purists will moan, I think an affordable, enclosed, side-by-side model would attract more people to this type of aircraft.

What we need is a simple, safe design that takes advantage of modern design practices and is sold in kit form with just the most critical components--rotor hub, blades, balancing--done at the factory and the rest more like a traditional airplane kit. The Best Off SkyRanger in France and the Sonex in the USA are just two of many examples of safe, simple aircraft that can be built for the price of a nice family car instead of a Porsche 911. Either of those can be built and flown, all in, for US$30-$50k. Where is the equivalent gyro?
Why a side-by-side?
If I had the money, why would I design and build a gyroplane as a manufacturer when I know an airplane has better chance of selling more in the LSA world etc. etc. This is what a sane business person would ask. What is the answer to that question? The market for such a gyroplane in the US is almost non-existent for now. Of course a market CAN BE created but that requires a very ambitious and passionate individual or team to take that task on.
Europeans by and large will not be buying an American gyroplane, trust me even if its better than the Germans or the Italians. UK is about the only country in Europe where a US light aviation product may sell well if you can spend enough time and resources to get around the A-1 BS UK has for manufacturers. You will hardly ever see a Frenchman in an American LSA. It has to do with culture and to some extent nationalistic pride not technology or innovation. Americans can if they wanted create better gyroplanes. There is no question about it but someone needs to show where the market is or how the market will be created.
In my experience, Americans are the only bunch of open people with a real open market in terms of culture, values as well as customs, VAT and tariffs to allow almost anyone to come in and sell openly alongside local manufacturers. Much the rest of the world wants its handouts on imports.

Last edited by fara; 07-08-2013 at 09:18 PM.
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  #27  
Old 07-08-2013, 10:08 PM
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I agree with Abid 100%. The markets are much different.

I believe it would be time consuming but flying fun to create a market in the US for the following 3 as there is a coolness factor to the ArrowCopter and Calidas and if they want side by side Zen1! Oh if and when the PAL-V!

ArrowCopter and Calidas look like little spaceships! You are going to get some TV air time if you just show up and ask!

You can sell cool in the US to the rich but you have to expose them to it, tell them why they are now safe, and give them a ride.

We know the events where they are already spending 250+K for their rides/toys and the same amount or more for there motorhomes.

If I was a CFI or was an experienced rotorwing pilot instead of FW I would approach the manufactures and teach them how to create a market in the US and offer to be one of the pilots for a commission of sales if they put up the demo models and I would pay for the expenses to go to all the races/events.
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Last edited by All_In; 07-08-2013 at 10:21 PM.
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  #28  
Old 07-08-2013, 11:57 PM
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All good points, thanks all.

In response to fara on the side-by-side question, if we are trying to court the fixed wing crowd then an enclosed, side-by-side is the way to go. Look around at any fly-in at the homebuilt and light sport aircraft or watch the completion announcements in SPORT AVIATION or KITPLANES. There is the occasional single-seater, more often than not a scratch-built homebuilt, a few more tandem two-seaters, usually a Cub clone or the like, and the vast majority are side-by-side two-seaters. Or take a look at the sales numbers of the various RV types, side-by-side models win hands down.

To appeal to fixed-wing pilots and get away from the daredevil image of the Bensen days, I actually think the Xenon/Zen1 nailed it for a helicopter-like look in the pusher configuration, the Cavalon in the gyro-meets-concept-car look and the tractor Phenix and Jukka Tervamäki's JT-11 concept are on the right track.
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  #29  
Old 07-09-2013, 06:33 AM
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I am Austrian and hence European. I don't see any prejudice to American products here at all. There's lots of examples to the contrary. If some US made gyro hit the right spot in the European market it would sell just as well. I simply have not seen any US gyro that compares with Calidus, Cavalon, ArrowCopter, Xenon/Zen1 and the likes. Mind you, I am not talking about one offs.

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Old 07-09-2013, 07:11 AM
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As an American with one foot in Europe (French wife) I have to agree. There is certainly no shortage of Cessnas and Pipers and Bells on the airfields I have visited, and even at microlight airfields you still find many Kitfoxes, RANS, Kolb, etc. If most microlights sold in Europe are European, it's more because the American manufacturers are not focused on the European market. Look how long it took Vans to get around to creating a Rotax-powered model? If you build it, they will come!
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