European growth in gyros

[WHY]

Have noticed over the last year, the amount of increased activity in the newer top end market of the gyro in Europe. Have wondered if the activity in the smaller open frame and single place machines is increasing as much. The big flyin-in in France seems to be the "big show" in Europe. I do not speak French or German or enough Spanish to read with any accuracy what is going on. Would someone from the European community care to comment on the growth of the small open frame and single place gyro in Europe ??

Tony

[fara]

Originally Posted by WHY

Have noticed over the last year, the amount of increased activity in the newer top end market of the gyro in Europe. Have wondered if the activity in the smaller open frame and single place machines is increasing as much. The big flyin-in in France seems to be the "big show" in Europe. I do not speak French or German or enough Spanish to read with any accuracy what is going on. Would someone from the European community care to comment on the growth of the small open frame and single place gyro in Europe ??

Tony

At Blois 2011, there wasn't even one single place gyro or open frame gyro present as far as I saw.

The biggest show in Europe is not Blois in France but Freidrichshafen Aero-Expo every year. It is kind of like Oshkosh of Europe

http://www.aero-expo.com/aero-en/visitors/news.php

I will be there in April this year

[Resasi]

There is a huge growth in the big and expensive machines, and it seems a decline in the singles and open frame, however it is still the grass roots singles where a lot of fun is.

It is horses for courses and room for all of us. I still feel that learning on the smaller open frames gives one a solid grounding in all the basic principles that can only add to having a good safe and enjoyable time in the bigger machines, but that is only my opinion, and I am sure that one can start on the bigger two places equally safely.

I learned small and worked my way up in the fixed wing world, felt is gave me a solid grounding, and am doing the same in the gyro world.

Some car drivers wouldn't dream of looking at a dirt bike let alone trying to ride one, just personal preference and what turns one on I guess.

With the finances I would have one of each.

[alain]

No, single place are not "in" anymore since a long time, if you except the home-builders. I am here talking about the manufacturers.

This is partly due to the specific French Ultralight regulations, related to the general increase in height and weight of the population: with the present French regulations, and the fact that gyros need more power compared to corresponding trikes or multiaxis, therefore mostly heavier engines, and rotors that are relatively speaking heavier, the payload becomes an increasing factor. And the security margin that applies do not allow buiding safe gyros while significantly reducing weight. Or, the gyro would then become financially out of reach.

The second factor is that pilots that were before flying multaxis or trikes become "bored" and find it more amusing to fly a gyro tha, unlike other ultralights, can land anywhere totally safely.

Last, all manufacturers that tried in the past 15 to 20 years to produce a single-seater (if it was not part of a production already providing 2-seaters), even if the simplest one, have simply disappeared from the market. Simply, costs for producing a single-seater vs. a 2-seater are the same (R+D, production, investments...), the only economy being on the engine, and then price being lower, the company has severe risks to finacially be rapidly out of monex... and indeed disappear from this market.

Only those who actually produce a range of gyros can add a single seater to their products' palette. And then, they only sell very few single-seaters.

Actually, there are 3 major shows in Europe:

- Germany, Aero (end of this month), to just SEE the production gyros. Depending on when you go, the crowd might make it difficult to have a real discussion with the manufacturers, but you get a good overview on all what concerns aviation, light aviation, ans accessories.

- France, Blois (Sept 1 and 2), to see them in flight, and possibly to try them, this is Europe's largest exhibition, with all categories of ultralights (Powered chutes, trikes, multiaxis, gyros, helicos, accessories).

- France, Bois de la Pierre, May 26-27, for those who like to see, touch, sometimes try gyros from a majority of homebuilers, and some production machines, with usually the only Gyro Patrol that performs at the end of the fly-in. Advantage here is that it is quite relaxed, and allows to directly talk to the builders, get information, tricks and tips.

[Gyro_Kai]

Hello,

one other important factor is the achievable profit margin you may reach.
Some 1 seaters, not commercially successful in Germany, were

the DF02

and the Clouddancer 1.


They offer enclosed cabin, as our weather is not always the nicest. With that they ended up in the 40 000 Euro range. The cheapest MTO costs new about 55 000 but can easily be found used for under 40 000. Then you have 4-stroke, more load capacity, a potentially paying passenger (yes, darling, the gyro will practically pay for itself ).

You need to be clearly under 30 000 to make it in the market place. Then the profit margin is not that great.


Kai.

[WHY]

Some really great feed back and insight, also some valuable lessons for the US. Thanks for the respones.

Tony

[WHY]

The above information would seem to indicate that the 2 primary factors in determining the success of the single place gyro even though it is well designed, would be the ability to reach a sustainable profit margine and government regulations or restrictions. I think the same would apply here in the US. Something to seriously consider !!


Tony

[All_In]

Thanks for posting it Tony and all who responded.

Interesting and very informative.

[All_In]

Is the population of FW aircraft and pilots higher where you live?

About what percentage of gyroplanes to FW do you suspect there is in your country.

[Steve_UK]

I think it would be fair to say that Europe is well ahead of the USA in terms of gyro design and world sales at the moment.

Europe has a number of gyro manufacturers and so sleek designs, plus new technology too ( Dutch gyro car technology demonstrator )

In no particular order

Auto Gyro Gmbh - Germany - Calidus, Cavalon, MTOsport

Magni - Italy - M-14, M-16, M-22, M-24

Xenon - Poland

ELA - Spain

Brako - Italy

Aviomania - Cyprus

Arrowcopter - top end design

plus others

The first two listed are selling large volumes of gyros, many hundreds - in addition Xenon has just past #150


I know there are US manufacturers ( Air Command, Butterfly, Sport Copter etc ) - these are mighty rare beasts in Europe.

Visual there appears to be some distance between the designs produced in Europe and the US at the moment.

I am NOT saying any particular product is better or worse but there certainly is a different market approach on either side of the pond.

Regards


Steve

[WHY]

Hi Steve

At the moment I would conclude that whether in Europe or the US, the Genisis GS-1 is the leading design in the single place open gyro, hope I can some day see a nice Weber N/A mounted on one.

Tony

[All_In]

Thanks Steve
It sucks that it is against regulations to own many of those in the States.

And economically with the huge market of 20K to 30K used FW aircraft that can carry four faster often with less fuel burn it still is a hard sell for me convert my FW pilots who out number us (not sure) 100 or 200 to one maybe more.

In the state you have got to really have a desire to fly rotorcraft to afford the higher cost on the European gyroplanes.

What is why I was asking. Trying to understand what is the difference in selling them in Europe. I know having to build them is one of the biggest I've run into.

[C. Beaty]

When I see claims of 3,000 European gyros manufactured in the past 12 years, I become just a little skeptical.

This list is probably nearer the truth:

http://wiki.fai.org/display/cimaBure...rent+countries

[Gyro_Kai]

Chuck, very interesting, for Germany those numbers look right.

Kai.

[Steve_UK]

add hundreds in Australia ( unfortunatly Australia does not publish its gyro register ) plus loads in South Africa plus others too