Transition sport to private pilot

[willisbr]

I am wanting to go after my private pilot FW soon. Really been looking at Maule's lately for cross country family stuff now that I'm living at the ranch.

I have my sport pilot gyroplane at this time. I suspect I will need to redo ground school and take another knowledge test. Is this correct? My ground school cert of completion says SP and the exam results are the same. But my training material was a lot of FW stuff included. I took the King's course. What's the best route from here?

My understanding is that none of my time in gyro applies for FW requirements. So I'll just need to dig out the requirements for FW PP and start from scratch. Correct?

At this point I'm going to order King's private pilot FW ground course, run through the software again and get the certificate. Get my student pilot cert issued again, this time for a FW. Find an instructor and get started.

Am I missing anything or need to consider something? Thanks for any help, especially from CFIs that have helped point transitioning sport pilots into private pilot. OH, speaking of that...I need to go get a medical at some point.

[PW_Plack]

Brian, you cannot get another student pilot certificate. You will never be a student pilot again unless your Sport Pilot certificate is revoked.

All the training for the Private Airplane certificate is required to be done in airplanes, so none of your gyro time will count. If you're using a home study course for the knowledge test prep, you'll be taking your flight instruction under Part 61, which will require at least 40 hours total, 20 hours dual, and 10 hours solo.

When it comes time to solo in an airplane, your instructor can issue you a competency sign-off, similar to what would be issued the holder of a student certificate.

While the gyro time won't satisfy any of the airplane requirements, it certainly may reduce the number of hours of training you need to be ready for the checkride. It is rare for new students to be ready for their Private practical tests in the minimum time. (I think the average for Private is about 65 hours.) You might actually do it in 40.

[willisbr]

Thanks Paul. I think my next step is to find a CFI. My local airport has instruction at 155/hr dual and 120 solo in a Piper Warrior or Cessna 172.

http://flymilton.com/training.html

Are these competitive or should I fish around for a private CFI that has his own personal trainer? Shoot me a PM if that would be more appropriate to answer that.

[PW_Plack]

Brian, there's no need to pay for more plane than you need. See if there's a flight school in your area that will provide instruction for the Private ASEL in an LSA, unless you feel the "heavy metal" will better prepare you for a Maule. There's a Cessna Pilot Center in Pensacola, but they don't appear to have any Skycatchers yet. Call and see if they have one coming. It will probably save you at least $20 an hour, and be more fun for both you and the instructor.

Looking for informal instruction from some guy tailgating at the airport may or may not be cost-effective. If it takes more hours to be ready for the checkride, saving on the hourly rate won't mean much..

[JEFF TIPTON]

Brian that price is probably in line. Here in Tennessee I charge $110.00 per hour for the aircraft and $30.00 per hour for the instructor.

[JEFF TIPTON]

That price is probably on line. Here in Tennessee I charge $110.00 per hour for a 1975 model Cessna 172. I charge $30.00 per for the instructor.

[willisbr]

Thanks Paul and Jeff. Paul, are you saying that I can get my private pilot in an LSA? I would like to get my endorsement the most cost efficient way and then go get transition training in type/model (Maule). I hear that 10 hours is preferred by most Maule owners. Probably less since I'm wanting a tri-gear.

[gyro]

Brian, why don't you just get your FW sport pilot endorsement added to your gyroplane and build your FW time to the required Private Pilot and then I think you only need to add your instrument rating?? I think it is an additional 20hrs...there may be more to it but this is a stepping stone in the right direction.

[GrantR]

Rates at my airport: Club member $45 a month dues. $75 hr for a Cessna 172 fuel included. Instructor $45 hr.

You can get you fixed wing PPL in any fixed wing aircaft that is registered.

[PW_Plack]

Originally Posted by willisbr

Paul, are you saying that I can get my private pilot in an LSA?

Yes! I'm not sure why some people get the idea you can't. You can train for Commercial (including night requirements) and Instrument in them, too, if they're properly equipped.

If you know you want to fly something heavier than 1320 lb, there's no real advantage to going Sport Pilot first. All that would do is allow you to fly off the solo requirements before the dual requirements. And DO NOT spend money to take dual instruction from a Sport Pilot Instructor, because as it stands right now, those hours do not count toward the Private dual requirement. (EAA is working on getting that one fixed.)

[PW_Plack]

Originally Posted by JEFF TIPTON

That price is probably on line. Here in Tennessee I charge $110.00 per hour for a 1975 model Cessna 172. I charge $30.00 per for the instructor.

Brian, Jeff's rates are pretty typical. They're a little higher out here in the west. But the Cessna Pilot Center near me just got its first Skycatcher LSA, and I believe it's renting for either $99 or $109/hour including fuel for solo.

[GrantR]

Correction:
You can train for PPL or SPL in a SLSA or Standard Category LSA but not in a ELSA unless you own the aircraft.

[Roundwing]

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments, including straight and level flight, constant airspeed climbs and descents, turns to a heading, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, radio communications, and the use of navigation systems/facilities and radar services appropriate to instrument flight;

(4) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and

(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least—

(i) 5 hours of solo cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 150 nautical miles total distance, with full-stop landings at three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

As far as aeronautical experience, any flight time you logged in gyros applies EXCEPT for the paragraphs that explicitly state that the time must be logged in a fixed wing aircraft.

There is a good possibility that you may be able to reduce the time down quite a bit. When you get started sit down with your instructor and copy of your log book and the appropriate regs and take each requirement line by line and figure it out.

You will definitely have to take the PPL written test.

[PW_Plack]

Originally Posted by Roundwing

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a single-engine airplane;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a single-engine airplane that includes...

(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering...

(4) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test...

(5) 10 hours of solo flight time in a single-engine airplane, consisting of at least...

As far as aeronautical experience, any flight time you logged in gyros applies EXCEPT for the paragraphs that explicitly state that the time must be logged in a fixed wing aircraft...

The FAA doesn't differentiate by "paragraph." The paragraphs trimmed from the above fall within the basic five requirements, which all must be done "in a single-engine airplane." No logged gyroplane hours count toward the Private/Airplane under current rules.

When you get to the next section, 61.129, there ARE big chunks of time in gyroplanes which could be counted toward the Commercial/Airplane.

But Private, 61.109, no.

Originally Posted by GrantR

Correction: You can train for PPL or SPL in a SLSA or Standard Category LSA but not in a ELSA unless you own the aircraft.

Not true. You can take instruction in any E-LSA (or EAB for that matter) not provided by the instructor. It doesn't have to be your aircraft. That may seem like a silly distinction, but there have been several guys in this area lately who've gotten flight reviews or primary instruction in machines that were flat-out loaned to them at no cost by generous friends who just wanted to grow the sport. Obviously, this will be less common in airplanes, because lots of options are available which can legally be rented.

It can also be done with a LODA. The FAA last year issued a LODA to a guy in California for training in an E-LSA powered parachute. The LODA will only be issued in districts where it can be shown that there are no S-LSA trainers available. It will likely be a slow process to get one issued, but the door was left open because there were only four S-LSA PPC trainers operational in the US by the deadline for retirement of all the E-LSA trainers.

In any case, if a flight school is renting you an LSA for solo work, it legally must be an S-LSA. I don't know if the FAA would disallow the solo hours after the fact if your flight school misrepresented the aircraft and rented you an E-LSA, but it might not be a bad idea to check before you fly it.

[WaspAir]

Originally Posted by PW_Plack

The FAA doesn't differentiate by "paragraph." The paragraphs trimmed from the above fall within the basic five requirements, which all must be done "in a single-engine airplane." No logged gyroplane hours count toward the Private/Airplane under current rules.

When you get to the next section, 61.129, there ARE big chunks of time in gyroplanes which could be counted toward the Commercial/Airplane.

But Private, 61.109, no.

I disagree on this detail. At least three FSDOs that I've dealt with read it this way:

61.109 (emphasis added) specifies "log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) ". The reference to training according to 107(b)(1) is specifically tied to airplanes by that sub-section, so at least 20 + 10 must be training in airplanes. But the remainder of the 40 (that leaves 10) is not so restricted. If you managed to get all the airplane specific items completed in the 20 + 10 (admittedly not typical), you could present a log with an additional 10 in gyroplanes (or gliders or helicopters) and would be qualified under the total experience requirement.

There is some symmetry in going airplane to gyro, airplane to helicopter, helicopter to airplane, and gyro to airplane, with up to ten hours in another category usable to meet the total experience of 40 hours (but not the other thirty), even at the private level.

Perhaps there is some regulatory guidance somewhere that would suggest a different result, but if so, the FAA folks I have dealt with don't know about it.