Arrow-Copter testflight, July 2011

[Walter]

Hi Chris,

Do you know how the ArrowCopter will be certified in Europe and when?
Which requirements will be needed to fly it? Will the Kit be available in Europe, and which requirements will be needed to get it certified?

Thanks,
-Walter

[alain]

Walter, this will be homebuilt (kit) for most countries, except those that allow for 560 kg categories.

[ckurz7000]

Originally Posted by Walter

Hi Chris,

Do you know how the ArrowCopter will be certified in Europe and when?
Which requirements will be needed to fly it? Will the Kit be available in Europe, and which requirements will be needed to get it certified?

Thanks,
-Walter

Hi Walter, the ArrowCopter will receive its Austrian type certificate this June (if all goes well). Since the registration requirements are based on the British BCAR Section T, which is quickly becoming a kind of gold standard for gyros, I imagine that other countries will validate the registration. What I don't know is how the 560 kg MTOW fits in with other countries' limitations. I imagine it would be possible to get an Austrian gyro license, register the ArrowCopter in Austria and fly it wherever there exists a validation.

The other route is to get the kit, build it yourself and register it as an Experimental. There seems to be less red tape in volved doing it this way.

-- Chris.

[Resasi]

Luckily weight not an issue in Kenya Chris, must check for the UK, but there may also be a speed and possibly variable pitch prop restriction over here? Certainly won't be either of those in Kenya.

[alain]

Sorry, Crhris: not as simple as that unfortunately :0)

The BCAR-T certification is indeed the passport to international markets, which have no, or separate ultralight regulations.

In Europe, you are either ultralight or general aviation. The AC10 fits into the later category - as I said above, except for countries which would allow gyrocopters up to 560 kg MTOW in their national ultralight regulations.

Once it gets its Austrian certification, it becomes like any other aircraft, general aviation, and can be used as such in all countries. With of course the required license, medical, rules, etc pertaining to general aviation.

For our international friends: in Europe, all aviation is under the "umbrella" of the EASA... except for ultralights, which remain under responsibility of their national authorities.

Which explains why there are still some differences between countries for the ultralight categories. The European definition for Ultralights exists (MTOW up to 560 kg for gyrocopters) but is NOT mandatory, unfortunately.

Most European countries then abide by the (pushed by France, within the EMF) Class 4 Ultralight Gyrocopter, limiting to 450 kg MTOW, or 472.5 kg with parachute.

Last: if ultralight, then you have advantatges, such as limited certification procedures (at lot less expensive), easier gyro pilot license, minimal medical, as well as some restrictions, but overal by far easier than within general aviation.

Then, as these ukltralight regulations are national, flying an ultralight in another country while the aircarft is registered n yet another depends on bilateral agreements, which is the case for most European countries.

But living permanently in one country, and keeping in that same country an ultralight registered in another one, you come under problems which that time relates to fical and territorial regulations....

LOL, sorry, it's a bit complicated.

To summarize:
- If ultralight, your aircraft needs to be registered in the country of your main legal residence (there are a few exceptions). You can fly in other countries if they have aa mutual agreement.
- If general aviation, you can fly in any country, and usually (again, there are exceptions) can have an aircraft registered in another one.

[ckurz7000]

Hi Alain, your description on the legalities of ULs vs. general aviation aircraft is correct. A lot of open questions and grey areas need to be cleared up, and I hope that they will. Particularly since I hvae heard rumors that there exists a push toward a unified European regulation for ULs. Maybe you know more about this?

Thanks, -- Chris.

[ckurz7000]

On another note, I wanted to post a short update on the ArrowCopter test flights and registration status.

We are about 1 week away from submitting the final documentation to the authorities, after which they usually take about 1-2 months to review and then award the Type Certificate. So I believe that by the End of June I can write an enthusiastic post anouncing the ArrowCopter's type certificate.

A lot has happened between in the meantime. We tested the rotor in an elaborate telemetry system with strain gauges, force gauges, etc., mounted on the trusty old BMW. We got up to slightly beyond 500 rrpm. Our calculations and modelling of blade bending and strain tallied extremely well with the measured values thereby validating our model. So in thes. future we can -- with a lot of confidence -- apply the model to new situations and predict rotor stress.

Flight testing has progressed to the point where I only need one good, wind still day to finish. The Pilot's Handbook is written, all drawings, test reports and reams of documentation is prepared.

Keep your fingers crossed, -- Chris.

[Resasi]

Congratulations on your steady forward progress Chris.

Which rotor were you testing?

Fingers crossed for your successful certification.

[alain]

Hi Chris

Oh, there has been a definite push for a long time LOL. But the fact is that ultralight fans and its European federation do not want to go under the umbrella of the EASA, which, with time, would negate all effeorts to keep ultralights simpler and easier at regulations levels.

Therefore, they keep these rules at national levels. Unfortunately, although keeping these out of EASA hands is indeed positive, France leads the pack at EMF, and refuses to take advantage of what current regulations would allow. This is mainly a MTOW problem, which in turn limits the true ability to manufacture "advanced" aircrafts AND allow to fly them with actual, real people.

It would be much too long to explain this in details here, but see that the present ultralight regulations allow for a maximun 495 kg MTOW (let's say: 500 kg to make it easier), and if general regulations could be changed to that later MTOW, a LOT of problems would be at last solved. Both for the manufacturers and the users.

Unforunately, won't come tomorrow, I'm afraid :0)

[Walter]

Alain:

which certificate would be needed to fly the ArrowCopter in Europe under EASA FCL rules?
Hopefully not helicopter rating. But I did not see gyros as a separate category in the FCL rules; they are not even mentioned, as far as I remember.

[GyroDoug]

Originally Posted by Dostik

Hello everyone!

I am interesting in some gyroplane model made by Carter Aviation Technologies.
Anyone know something about them? I Cannot contact them by their contact info on home page.
Any info you would find please contact to dastanjumabekov@yahoo.com

Regards,
Dastan

Dastan,

I am surprised no one has replied to your question although I suspect they may have done it via e-mail rather than openly on the forum. For the sakle of others that might read this thread I wanted to reply publicly.

Carter Aviation does not have any Gyroplanes models available to sell. They really have no desire to build and sell aircraft but are primarily a reasearch company that wants to develop the Technology and then license it to another company that will actually produce machines and sell them. While they may be forced out of that business model if they want to more forward, I woudl not be looking for anything to be available from them for sale for quite some time still. And while they may eventually produce a 2 seater it will still be a very expensive and high end machine. They are not trying to build Gyroplanes for the common man. They are trying to take Gyroplanes to the next level and build a machine that will change the world and it will be designed for general aviation and people that have a lot more money than most of us do. If that describes you and you are willing to wait for years, then they may be the right place for you to be looking towards. I sure wish them luck as any success in any part of the Gyro world will still help all the rest of us.

[Resasi]

Doug, probably nobody replied because Dastan had plastered that same posting all over the forum. It is interesting however that Claudius Klimt who has bought and begun the ArrowCopter kit, and is posting on his build thread had spent a lot of time involved in and with the Carter Copter project.

His comment to me when I met him was pretty much that, if and when it came to any tangible form, was anybodies guess.

I put a deposit down on the Carter two place for quite a while. It changed form so often, and climbed so high in estimated price that I finally asked for... and received my money back.

Interestingly Dastan would pay less now for the ArrowCopter, than Carter was estimating his two-place would cost, at least four years ago.

[fara]

I talked with Carter Copter and basically, when and if (and that's a big IF) they ever come out with a product, it will have to be of very limited populace scope. That's just my impression. They may disagree with me but I'll stand behind my assessment.
It takes a very different dynamic to do R&D than to bring something to market and make it viable as a product and very seldom you have a single small team that can do both decent enough.
This thread is about ArrowCopter Dastan ... its considered rude that you trampled over it with Carter info.
But FYI ... Claudius worked with Carter for some years and just finished building the Austrian ArrowCopter for himself. A beautiful machine, no doubt. I saw it in person and had a good talk with Claudius in Germany. Perhaps you should look at ArrowCopter

[alain]

Walter:

Ah... This is a very good question ! At present time, there are no General Aviation gyrocopter pilot ratings LOL.

So I'm afraid that this once again depends on the country. As an example: in France, you would have to have on one hand a Pilot License (general avaiation), either fixed wing or helicopter, PLUS an ultralight gyrocopter license.

The first one because of general aviation regulations, radio and medicals, the second one because gyrocopter instructors are only found in the ultralight category, therefore you need to train with them :0)

A bit complicated, huh ? But, well, the one that wants to fly can indeed do it. Only, it will then be restricted to General Aviation regulations, e.g. only use GA airports... missibg the 600 ultralight airfields we have in that country :0) And it will have to be flown like a general aviation aircraft.

Note for our foreign friends: in France, radio is not mandatory for ultralights. Yes, many have it (and then should comply e.g. with proficiency English level 4), because it makes travelling easier, but you can as well, then avoiding the many controlled and military airsapces we have, fly without it.

[Resasi]

I had experienced these sort of problems trying to get a UK Gyro PPL recognized in Kenya.

The way around this finally was to get a Class II Kenya Medical, obtain a Kenya Fixed Wing PPL. This, together with a recognized other state approval to fly gyros, would then allow me to fly a Kenya registered gyro.

I am not aware of any limitations placed on gyros as long as it has been passed by the KCAA Airworthiness section.

The only registered Gyros in Kenya at the moment are Magnis, but having talked with the KCAA head of Airworthiness it appears that any factory build, conforming to a recognized authorities airworthiness standards, should, after their inspection be OK.