Why not use real aircraft engines on LW's?

[GyroRon]

Why spend so much on Rotax 912 and 914's, or Rotec Radials OR use a old school VW type powerplant when good certified aircraft engines can be had for so much less?

Here is one ad fresh off Barnstormers....

LYC 0-235 L2C • $3,500 • FOR SALE • Great engine. Removed from my Grumman Lynx. (Putting in an 0-320) Only 1680 hours. Excellent compression. First $3500. • Contact Rj Siegel - SKYSTRUCK located Bayside, WI USA • Telephone: 414-793-6676 • Fax: 414-247-0176 • Posted November 2, 2004

this engine is somewhere between 108 and 115 horsepower as it sits. It has a recommended Time between overhauls of 2400 hours so this engine above has 720 hours of time before the overhaul is even recommended - and alot of people go WAY beyond that with no trouble.

I don't know how much the engine weights, but surely the engine mount can be beefed up to handle the extra weight.

[GyroRon]

Here is another....

LYC. 0-235 L2C • $4,900 • FOR SALE BY OWNER • 0-235 L2C complete with mags. and carb., 1831Hrs. SMOH • Contact Larry Glenn - located Bunn, NC USA • Telephone: 919-496-5036 • Posted November 4, 2004 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Send a Message

and yet another even lighter engine. More money but this is a freshly overhauled engine ready to go with prop and spinner! 100 horsepower.....

CONTINENTAL 0-200 • $9,500 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • 0-200 continental 100hp, repair station J&M overhauled, 0 time since major overhaul, has logs, new exhaust, carb, vaccum pump, mags, prop and spinner off cessna 150, ready to go $9500. 812-345-9888cell 812-358-2380home • Contact Lance Bartels - CHERRY HILL AVIATION located Nashville, IN USA • Telephone: 812-988-6525 • Posted October 31, 2004 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Send a Message

[Screw]

Screw-In

Not sure, but I think wieght is the big issue. So is the $2400 prop that goes with it. Not sure though.

screw-Out

[jolly467]

Let's see - the Franklin 4 cyl I'm thinking about weighs a touch over 200 lbs, ready to go...and is rated at 125 hp.... Last quote I got on overhauled unit was something around $5000.00 (could likely run up on one less than that).

Even with a new metal prop, you aren't looking at as much money as you would put into a 912......with a wood prop, much less.....and as much as I like the Rotec radial, I don't think I can swing that much $$

Steve Wages

[scottessex]

Can you still get franklin parts?
Do you have to keep a certified engine certified?

Because they are 1940's technology, and they are expensive!!!!

But they are reliable.

How about a ford or chevy v-8?

[gyromike]

An O-200 weighs ~190-200 lbs.
An O-235 ~240 lbs.
So that's in the ball park if I remember correctly. Might have to shift the gear forward like Ron did on the radial.

I think you can get a reconditioned metal prop for ~$1400, but that's just going from memory. And there's always Warp, Prince, etc.

[Chopper Reid]

Biggest problem I see with used aircraft engines, is the cost to overhaul ! I average about 400 to 500 hours a year so a engine requiring overhaul in 300 hours aint going to last me a year !!

[GyroRon]

Overhauling a certified engine certainly will be more than a Subaru, but it can be done for alot less than you might think.

One big fact that people aren't clear on - Scotts question prompted this - Is a Certified engine is just a engine. The certified part of it is just a status of the engine. If it is on a Cessna 172 and the only ones touching the engine are A&P mechanics then it will continue to keep it's certified status. If you take that engine off the Cessna and use it on a airboat But the engine remains stock and the only persons who touch the engine are A&P mechanics then guess what..... it is still a certified engine. But if you, a non A&P, start messing around with the engine, changing things on it, working on it, etc.... it loses it's certified status - no matter what it is mounted on. So the bottom line here is if you buy a certified engine and do your own work on it, your own overhauls and maintance, it is no longer a certified engine. Only place this matters is resale value of the engine itself, cause if it is no longer certified it can't go back on a certified airplane - unless a A&P does a complete check out of the engine and recertificates it.

Most people only fly 50-100 hours a year so a engine that is expensive to overhaul is still not that expensive when you figure it won't be needed but once every 10 years. And also consider that for these engines a complete overhaul means EVERYTHING is overhauled. Mags, Carb, electrics, exhaust, cylinders, bottom end, cases, Everything back to factory standards. A fresh overhaul on these engines is around 10 grand. Sure that is alot of money, but if you do it yourself, it can be done for half as much. It is a simple engine and any lawnmower mechanic could overhaul one.

Some people say parts are too expensive. Well look again folks!!! I posted above ads for two lycoming O-235's. I found at least 5 more priced just like these are, and I only went back a few pages, there is probably 50 more priced like this. Lets say you got one of these engines on your gyro or airplane. Something on your engine breaks. Maybe the crankshaft - the most expensive part - fails. Not only is a replacement crank easy to find, it is only 3500.00$ and comes with the rest of the engine as a bonus. See my point? Worst case is if something on your engine breaks and it costs alot, you just buy another engine and swap out motors. And now your old engine is a collection of valueable spare parts that might come in handy if something else breaks.

Props are not going to be much more expensive. You can use the same prop on a lycoming as you would use on the VW or Rotax - Rotec. Many people are flying Lycomings and Conts with Warp Drive and Ivo props. Also Tenn Props makes really nice wood props for Lycomings and Conts. True if you want to buy a Certified Prop with it's certified status you will pay a small fortune for it. But used certified props for these engines sell often for under 1000$ and Like I said, if you go with a non Certified version, you can come out even cheaper.

I had to buy a prop for the Baby Ace I bought 2 years ago. It had a cont engine. I placed a ad on Barnstormers looking for a prop and someone contacted me and sold me a prop he had bought but never used. It was a brand new in the crate Tenn wood prop with the leading edge protection like John has on his KB-2's prop. I paid 350$ with Shipping for the prop. So don't tell me you can't find a good deal on a prop!

Scott the car engines would be nice, but they are surely too heavy for most gyros!

Looks like the O-200 would be perfect, weight and power wise. I would go for the Lycomings though. I think parts are still fairly easy to get for Franklin engines, but they are not as common as the others, so who knows...

[GyroRon]

Steven, all things being equal If I were the one building the gyro and had to choose between a 9500$ overhauled O-200 and a 9500$ Rotax 912, I would choose the 912. But those engines need servicing too, don't think cause it is newer tech that it will make it to TBO with only oil changes!

But you have to credit the " certified " engines for being robust, simple and trustworthy.

If it was your gyro, would you rather have a Lycoming, Cont, or a VW conversion with a belt reduction?

I started this thread for us to all discuss, but I also wanted to see if there is a better option for my friend John Stevens. He is trying to sell his pride and joy to help pay for a VW with redrive engine package for his Little Wing project. I think the VW is not the way to go and maybe using a certified engine will be cheap enough to allow him to keep his KB-2 and still have a sweet Little Wing.

The way I am seeing it, John could pay 7+ grand for a VW with a belt reduction, or 3500$ for a Lycoming. Either one he has to buy a prop.

[GyroRon]

Also Steven remember that this engine is to be used on a Tractor gyro not a pusher and a two place at that, so needless to say it will be a cruiser, not a whip it around the patch machine. Because of that I believe the throttle settings will be more consistant and not on and off like it might would be in a hot rod single place.

[Hognose]

Re: Car engines.

Some things just belong on the ground.

I would say half the problems and delays that Carter Aviation Technologies have had with their test program, have been due to their trying to blaze the auto-engine trail at the same time. They have blown up, I think, a couple of the old Buick Grand National engines (hot tip: if you don't have to operate at high density altiitude, a turbocharger is a wasteful nightmare that will fail on you; if you do have to do that, it is a NECESSARY wasteful nightmare that will fail on you) and one Corvette LS-1 engine. (Heck, I've fried two L-98s and a ZZ4 in the last few years, and that was in my street car),.

Auto engines are great for planes in theory. The only ones I hear about being great in practice are Soobs and Mazda rotaries (and there are a number of reliable motors with lots of VW in their DNA). The rap on the rotaries is that they suck fuel like no tomorrow. Everybody I know who's used a V-6 or V-8 auto motor has had trouble with it.

(Oh yeah, Corvair motors had a good reputation, but parts and expertise are very hard to find any more).

Ron axes about Franklins. Problem with the Frank is that while the tooling went to PZL in Poland when Franklin failed, over the years PZL made numerous improvements of their own, and the documentation of these is spotty. So you may have interchange problems with old and new parts. Franklin does have a line of interesting and well-conceived motors, and they are inexpensive to overhaul because of their design (the cylinders are sleeved, and you just discard the sleeves on an OH). The biggest Frank overhauls for around $8k.

I THINK PZL discontinued the Franklin in the 1990s and the entire product line is for sale again, if anybody wants to be an aviation manufacturer.

cheers

-=K=-

[Screw]

Screw-In

Thanks for starting this thread Ron because this subject is on my mind even as I watched the "Apprentice."

I don't know what to do. I know that I can write a check for a $3500 engine tomarrow. But I have to sell my baby to write a 7k check.

If I bought an O-200 for $3500, what All would be needed to get it mounted and running? I hope I wouldn't have to overhaul as soon as I bought it. What would the overall wieght be?

http://www.weebeastie.com/hatzcb1/motorO200.html

Will I now be running dual mags and a 24 volt electrical system? I could live with buying a prop.

My landing gear is already mounted forward for a heavy engine like the radial or the VW so I'm not too worried about balance. I already have a motor mount for the VW, but as I understand it from Great planes, that mount is a standard Lycoming mount.

I don't have a problem rolling the dice on a GA engine, I just want to know if it's the right thing and someone who has been there and done that to hold my hand.

Screw-Out

[Brent_Brown]

Thia is the hardest thing about gyros what to power it. In the tractor I feel we get more options. If the 0-200 has the log book and is good to go then that looks like the right way to go. But I will hold your hand anyway.

[quadrirotor]

Deleted not to spoil this thread!...

[GyroRon]

John, most certified aviation engines - all the ones that you would be looking at as far as power and price - will use 12 volts.

Also worth mentioning is that the engine only needs power to turn the electric starter. The ignition system makes it's own power. You could save weight by removing the starter and prop starting it like you do the VW, only I can promiss that it will be ALOT easier to prop start a Certified engine!!!

Yes it will have dual ignition.

As far as maybe having ot do major work on it right off the bat.... well that is just something that is purely a luck or lack of luck factor John. If you have someone experienced look at the logs, or even better is hire a local - to the engine - A&P mechanic to go to the engine and perform a " Pre Buy inspection " you will have a much better idea of what your getting.

There is no doubt that a Real Aircraft engine is not maintance free as Steven posted. You may start to show a loss of compression on a cylinder or two, sometime down the road. But guess what? That is okay cause you can replace just the bad cylinder and then go flying. If there is one thing I have observed about certified engines and upkeep on them, is that when something goes bad or breaks, most often the repairs only deal with that one part. Doing so means the repairs are cheaper. Imagine if you lost compression on one cylinder on your VW or Subaru, you wouldn't tear the engine all apart and fix just one cylinder, while apart you would do the whole engine. On a aircraft engine only one cylinder might be bad and it can be taken apart and fixed without disturbing the rest of the engine.

and one other thing.... No aircraft engine comes with much of a warrenty. And even rarer is a aircraft engine company standing behind their warrenty. Buy the VW and if it ****s on you, even in the first few hours, I would be extremely surprised if they accepted any responsibility for the problem. IOWs I believe they would say it was your fault and expect you to pay for the repairs. and just because it is a new engine, that doesn't mean anything. It can still break even when it is still practically brand new. that is why warrentys exist.

If you buy a certified engine that is advertised as complete, it should have everything you need including carb, mags, exhaust, starter and alternator or generator. If you buy it that way, you may have to rework the exhaust to your application, and you will have to install the fuel lines and throttle and mixture lines etc.... You may have to install a carb heat system but that is not to hard. Brent said he would hold you hand!