Catch 22 (or how not to get a PPL)

[Jerseywing]

The more I read the less I'm sure of. I'll start at the beginning...
I want to fly gyroplanes
To do it right and get insurance you need a PPL
I have to take lesons to get a PPL.
To get a PPL you need solo time.
I can't solo in my instructors craft because insurance companies won't let you solo in someone elses craft (unless you give your firstborn male).
I can't insure my own craft without a PPL
I can build but cant test my own without a PPL. - First 40 hrs is supposed to be done by PPL
To get a PPL you need night instruction
FAR says you can't fly at night in an experimental.
You need instrument time to get a PPL
Gyros typically don't do this style of instruments
Maybe I'm missing something here but it looks like unless you say screw the regs you can't get a PPL in a Gyro
Can someone enlighten me..

[asmuzsr]

Get your PPL in f/w then get a rotorcraft, gyro add on.
One other thing, if your gyro is lit properly you can fly an experimental at night.

Tony

[pwendell]

Some instructors/schools will let you solo in the trainer. Mine did, AAI in Phoenix, and I think the other AAI facilities do the same thing.

A student pilot with the appropriate solo signoff can fly his machine during the 40 hour test period. He cannot, however, take instruction in that machine, if it is a two place, until the 40 are flown off.

Properly equipped gyros can fly at night.

You absolutely do NOT need instrument training for a PP with a Rotorcraft, gyroplane rating, but you do for a FW rating.

[PW_Plack]

Michael,

For insurance through Falcon, you'll need not only the PPL, but training approved by the kitmaker. (Three hours, I believe.) Instructors are supposed to sign you off for solo only after dual instruction in a "similar" aircraft. The three kitmakers who've gotten their machines approved all offer approved instruction, so it might make sense to train to the point of soloing with an instructor approved by the maker of the kit you choose.

[Jerry Carter]

Truly, this is a catch 22. I believe that, in the interest of safety, there should be some sort of exemption for pilots training in homebuilt, experimental gyroplanes.

When I built my RV-8A, I already had well over 1,000 hours of fixed wing time. It was not that big of a deal (after the first flight, anyway) for me to fly off the Phase I test time. A person who builds a gyroplane and who does not already have flight experience faces the quandry of how to get enough training to fly safely in his own gyro. When I fell in love with gyros at Sun N Fun this year, I decided to build a Sparrowhawk. But, being the impatient sort, I bought a second-hand RAF with stabilizer with a friend of mine in order to train and gain proficiency prior to completing my kit. This has worked out well, allowing both of us to obtain our gyroplane ratings as add-ons to our pilot certificates. Now, when time comes to solo the Sparrowhawk, I will be able to handle that.

However, I realize that not everyone can do what I did. Why not allow flight instruction in two-place gyroplanes after a very short initial test period?

[BUD ONEAL]

But you can get a ppl in a gyro plane,I have a rotor craft,Gyro ppl in my wallet.
Bud O'Neal

[barnstorm2]

Jersy,

I am on the cusp (I think and hope) of getting my gyro PPL. I have done everything by the book.

A couple of notes:
1. Night is no longer required as of Sept 1st. ( too late for me I already took my 3hrs night with Steve M)
2. Experimentals can fly at night (as stated above)

[daveeisler]

I just moved out of New Jersey last week, I was in the same exact situation as you and I did it. There is no easy way to do it the right way and the legal way, But it is easy. To much for me to type but we can talk it over on the phone if you like. Dave 505-546-9599

[pwendell]

Tim,

I just checked the latest FARs online -- dated 10/5/04 -- and the night training requirment is still in effect for a private cetificate. A Sport pilot certificate does not require night experience.

I believe the night experience requirment is actually required by the ICAO -- International Civil Aviation Organization. Since a private certificate allows one to operate an aircraft in other countries as well as the US, certain minimum training standards are required in all member countries. Night experience is one of those minimum standards.

[pwendell]

Bud,

So do I! I got my PP certificate 2 weeks ago with Rotorcraft- Gyroplane as my first, and only, rating. I did all of my dual and solo work in a gyro, and soloed in the training aircraft, including night, x-country, and towered operations. I even took the gyro specific knowledge test. I did everything 'by the book', just like any other PP.

I believe any of AAIs training facilities will offer the same services.

BTW I do not own a Sparrowhawk or a Modified RAF, and I can't afford one at the moment. The folks att AAI don't only train kit builders. I'm now looking for single place, if my finances co-operate. I decided to train before getting an aircraft, since I felt that training was the most important place to allocate my limited money.

[PW_Plack]

Allowing newbies to train in their own homebuilts before the end of the 40-hours test phase, "in the interest of safety?" It may be in the interest of economy, but hard to make a case for safety. That period is supposed to be when you explore the flight envelope and gather the data to fill in the blanks in the performance sections of your Pilots Operating Handbook. It may be treated as a formality and nuisance in the gyroplane community, but it's there for a reason.

When there was no training available in my area (Portland, OR) for a while, two experienced gyro pilots suggested I get my PPL in fixed-wing, preferably in tailwheel aircraft so I'd learn rudder skills, then move to the add-on. I did it...at $35/hour wet for the Aeronca Champ, and $35/hour for the instructor. I had already been through a 10-week Part 141 ground school course for the Private ASEL, and passed the written.

I'm very happy I took this path. In my first 40-minute session in a tandem gyro trainer, I was close to mastering balancing on the mains, and was able to adapt to the power curve and get porpoising mostly controlled. I think my time in the taildraggers will shorten the very expensive time I need in a gyro trainer to be ready for the practical test. The formal ground school forced me to learn how to prepare and file flight plans, deal with radio communications, and understand basic physiological, regulatory, aerodynamic and powerplant topics. It seems as if many gyroplane pilots make it to the PPL under Part 61 with a lot of misconceptions in these areas, and no idea how to use a radio or transponder.

Guys, the training we need is out there, but you may have to look for it, travel to get it, or start in a fixed-wing and transition. There is reportedly a glut of CFIs available in the fixed-wing world, roughly one instructor for every two student pilots, and the training aircraft are more plentiful and inexpensive.

We can't ask for quality gyroplane training at a cost per hour below what you pay the Roto-Rooter guy.

[barnstorm2]

Peter, I found this out from my FAA examiner who knows I am checkriding for PPL.

[pwendell]

Tim,

Then he knows something that is NOT in the FARs, as far as I can tell anyhow. Here's the link to the most recent FARs: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....5.1.5&idno=14

[barnstorm2]

Humm... I will double check with him when I call to schedule.

[Chuck Roberg]

With the release of the Sport Pilot rule. Night flight is NOT rerquired for a PPL Rotorcraft Gyroplane.

This is from the FAA web site and is the final rule of the Sport Pilot NPRM.

Section 61.110 Night flying exceptions
The FAA did not propose to amend §61.110, however, the FAA received many comments suggesting that a private pilot who wants to obtain a weight-shift-control, powered parachute, or gyroplane rating should not be required to fly at night if the aircraft is not equipped for that operation, or the pilot chooses not to seek those privileges. Most aircraft in those three categories are not equipped with the aircraft instruments or lighting required under part 91 for night operations. Those aircraft are primarily suited for daytime operations under visual flight rules.
The FAA is modifying §61.110 to permit a person seeking a private pilot certificate with a gyroplane, powered parachute, or weight-shift-control aircraft rating to obtain that rating without complying with the night flying requirements specified in §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2). A private pilot who does not complete these requirements for night operations will have a limitation placed on his or her pilot certificate stating “night flying prohibited.” This limitation can be removed at any time by a designated examiner or an FAA inspector when the pilot completes the night flying requirements established under the appropriate section of part 61.

Changes
The FAA is adding paragraph (c) to §61.110 to permit a person who does not meet the night flying requirements in §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2) to be issued a private pilot certificate with the limit “Night flying prohibited.” This limitation may be removed by an examiner if the holder complies with the requirements of §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2), as appropriate

************************************************** **

This is how 61.110 will be revised.

§61.110 Night flying exceptions.
* * * * *
(c) A person who does not meet the night flying requirements in §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2) may be issued a private pilot certificate with the limitation “Night flying prohibited.” This limitation may be removed by an examiner if the holder complies with the requirements of §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2), as appropriate.