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#31
05-18-2010, 10:09 AM
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Chill
Was this a serious or light hearted post?
Quote:
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#32
05-18-2010, 02:12 PM
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Jason do you have anything constructive to add, or are you just being combative?
Why don't you add to the forum and tell us about your engine conversion, and what kinds of things you have encountered with it. This would add much more value to you posts, and make better reading. Thanks.
__________________
The government cannot give anything to anybody that the Government does not first take from somebody else. “I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” - Thomas Jefferson Scott Essex....Flying H Ranch
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#33
05-18-2010, 03:57 PM
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Argumentative or being based in reality?
Hello Scott,
I dont know what to say about your first comment. All of my posts are directed specifically at people who make comments that they state as fact, but are based on perception or make huge leaps of assumption. I believe that people who post things like "its a proven engine because the snowmobile guys say it runs strong", this engine is way better than that because the way the gearbox mounts", "this engine will only burn miniscule amounts of fuel because it gets great gas milage in the vehicle", "this engine will be a slam dunk just slap a gearbox on it and go", this engine will run for 1000's of hours because of how long it runs in the vehicle" are making connections that dont apply or are not true. I believe saying these things are doing a dis-service to people who are looking for engines. I think people should understand (as you do) what a long hard road it will be if you choose to go the alternate engine route. People should go into it with eyes wide open about the facts that if an engine runs well in a vehicle, it means very little about how it will run connected to a gearbox and a prop. The general reason people want an alternate engine is to reduce the cost of the engine. I can tell you that the 4 year journey on my alternate engine route probably was not much less expensive than shopping hard for a good used 912 engine that would be much more likely to be reliable for way more hours. If you are a tinkerer and you dont mind working on your aircraft more than you fly it and enjoy the challenge (and reward) of spending much time and money on fixing, reworking and testing, then the alternate engine route might be for you. I dont think it should ever be presented (especially by people who have never gone down the road) as something that is easy, inexpensive, and wont take hundeds of flight hours to actuall work through. I think if you go back and read the posts I have written, they only dispute things that stated as fact but are making huge (and faulty) leaps of logic or are based on emotion and hope. Example of this would be imply (or state) that an engine would be reliable in an airplane because of its record in another vehicle. Another example would be how inexpensive this conversion will be when all the person has purchased so far is the bare engine and has no quotes or anything for everything else (which could quite possibly be many times more than the engine cost). As I posted once, the thing that is wrong with the forum is that when I dispute these "facts" people dont respond with "I have a quote and have a full bill of materials about how much this will cost", or this engine has been run for hundreds of hours in an aircraft, what they respond with is "self proclaimed expert", "guess I am stupid then", and they start the personal thing when nothing was ever implied about them personally only the things they are stating as fact. If we are to have a real exchange of ideas, lets exchange ideas and not an exchange of emotion. I totally understand that everyone gets to make up their own mind and no one forces you to go down the alternate engine route. It is expiremental aviation and everyone knows that. I have just been on a crusade lately to bring a little reality to this thing. I have responded and helped anyone who has sent me private messages about my engine installation and my expierences with it. One reason I have not posted my success on the open forum is so I dont want to perpetuate the illusion that the engine I choose to use is reliable and will work for everyone. From expierence, what would happen is I would say it is working well for me and you will imediately see people saying look how reliable this engine is and I will just get one of these myself and slap it on and it will be totally trouble free. Conversly, if I post the problems, you will get people (with mostly dubious motives) saying that engine is junk, it has been tried and has many problems. I am most comfortable letting people know what engine I am running and then if they are sincere about wanting to know the facts or talk, they can pm me and I am a fountain of information. The only thing I can tell you for sure about my installation is that it will run for 62 hours and be acceptably (to me) trouble free. Beyond that, I cannot speculate. Regards Jason Quote:
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#34
05-18-2010, 05:35 PM
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Jason, Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of your post. The written forum is not the best at conveying emotion and inflections, etc.
I apologize for any misunderstanding. You are correct in what you have said. if the alternative engine thing was easy, and a sure thing, everyone would be using one. Rotax engines started in snowmobiles, the company saw the potential for a market segment and developed a superior product, no doubt. It looks like Weber over in Europe may be taking the same route with this engine. With the EPA and every one trying to outlaw 2 strokes, and rotax saying they are going to drop the 503 etc, people are excited about a new alternative. Yes sometimes we get over excited because we see something that we think might be the answer to our dilemma. The Yamaha is very impressive, I know it has had teething problems like everything else. There is NO cheap answer, what is R&D time worth? I agree with everything that you have stated in your previous post. Again, I apologize for taking the earlier post out of context.
__________________
The government cannot give anything to anybody that the Government does not first take from somebody else. “I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” - Thomas Jefferson Scott Essex....Flying H Ranch
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#35
05-18-2010, 06:03 PM
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Someone who has never done R&D work has no idea of how many hundreds of hours it takes to design and build something, they have no idea how many parts end up in the scrap pile because they are not quite rite or you find a better way to accomplish your goal, not counting what the raw material costs that you just threw away. How many things you have bought and never ended up using because it did not pan out like you first thought it would.
I must also say that I am a bit disappointed in this thread in general, when I read it I get this motor is better than the Yamaha motors because yadda yadda, this motor is simpler than the Yamaha's because yadda yadda this motor is going to be more reliable because yadda yadda. These statements may or may not be true but I have never felt the need to stand on the necks of my compition to promote my idea ever. I feel if my product is better it will sell it's self with out me having to resort to these childish tactics. I have much respect for anyone who puts their neck and money on the line trying to find a better way that will benefit other people in general and who says one idea is the only one worth considering? Look how many different auto manufacturers their are who all have their own great ideas yet they all survive and learn off of each other, Why should we be any different? My motto is all boats rise in a high tide. Just my two cents. Todd
__________________
You have a much better view when you live life on the edge. http://youtube.com/watch?v=8P-sAbVNde4
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#36
05-18-2010, 07:02 PM
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Todd, I wouldn't stress.... There has been plenty of talk about the Weber engines for years, but other than Larry Neal, I know no one that has put their money where their mouth is and bought one. Yamaha's on the other hand, well there is what 3-4 of them flying already and several more on order or already delivered and in the installation stage? That ought to say something right there
__________________
...Ask me and I will tell you..if you don't want to know then don't ask.
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#37
05-19-2010, 02:52 AM
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Ron and Todd, I believe that the Yamaha and the Weber can BOTH be successful, They have already converted webers over in Europe, I have opted not to spend the money right now because I cannot justify the cost Plus the R&D at this point. I have enough going on I do not want to start a business.
But that being said, The yamaha is 100+ HP and quite a bit larger than the rotax 582. The weber on the other hand is about 80 hp, and approximately the same size as the 582, Theoretically, you could replace the 582 with the weber without having to modify the whole aircraft tyo carry a heavier and larger engine. No one ever said one was better than another, just a different option. Yes people are sick and tired of rotax raising the prices 4 times a year, and charging 4 times the price for each component. BUT rotax has dumped a lot of money into R&D to make a good product. So you have to pay to play, unless you can find something else that works. I do not believe that the weber and the yamaha would be competing for the same market. Rotortec and SME have both been using the weber.
__________________
The government cannot give anything to anybody that the Government does not first take from somebody else. “I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” - Thomas Jefferson Scott Essex....Flying H Ranch
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#38
05-19-2010, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Find me one I can afford and I will put my money on a Weber. Not to say that the Yahama is not good. I respect what Todd has done. I have made plenty of throw away parts for sure.
__________________
Mark Carmouche KB2,KB 4 N582BC
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#39
05-19-2010, 05:27 AM
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At some time someone said put a VW on that and a EA, EJ Soob. I like finding engine that I think will make a good gyro engine. If I never use one so what. If someone wants to go for it. I just put a 1000 buck on my 670 to make it DCDI. It worked but it could of been all bad. I might of been the 1st to use a MZ202 on a gyro and I liked it.
I offer what I know if you ask and don't bad mouth othre for doing it the way they want. Not that I thinlk anyone was. We need to find more option to power the toy we love to fly. I still in Afghanistan so fly for me some will you?
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#40
05-19-2010, 01:13 PM
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Brent, I'll have Q deliver "Little Nellie 2 " to you....... You can fly her yourself !
Just don't shoot down too many choppers ! OK double O ? PS...She will be equipped with Dillon's Mini guns !
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Happy Flying, Chris S.
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#42
05-19-2010, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Not sure what the weber costs, but if you can get one new for 7500$ that doesn't seem out of line to me if all you need to add is a gearbox. Brent, I personally feel the same as you do, the more engine choices the better. I was just commenting on the weber cause for some reason there is alot of talk about it, but no takers. The VW and Subaru guys choose those engine cause they are very cheap to buy and convert. Even today a brand new Aerovee 80 HP Vw engine conversion is about what a new 503 Rotax goes for which in the grand scheme of things is still cheap. Even today a person could scratch up a junkyard EJ-22 and convert it to direct drive and put it on a single place gyro and have reasonable performance, for I would estimate under 1500$ total spent.
__________________
...Ask me and I will tell you..if you don't want to know then don't ask.
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#45
05-20-2010, 04:49 AM
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Tony,
Dad is getting one this week and will be sending it to Neil to do just that.
__________________
"You can try to educate the ignorant but, you can't argue with stupid" Mike Boyette Recreational Pilot Gyroplane Sunstate Wing & Rotor Board Member Pra Member #46553
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