More Fuel Tank PROBLEMS

[MichaelBurton]

At this point I have received only two requests for the fuel tank replacement. If I don't get a few more it will not be a viable project. I will update all those that have made or make a request by PM as to the final status of the project.

[Russ]

Lots of boats have fiberglass tanks which are destroyed by ethanol. There is a marine grade fuel saver that is supposed to protect the tanks from ethanol damage:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...uel+Stabilizer

It costs about $29 a gallon on one ounce treats five gallons of fuel.

[rkwill]

Fellows,

The experience of many of us that fly (used to fly) with fiberglass tanks in the wings or elsewhere is that fiberglass dissolves and sheds glass fibers. The resulting sludge and fibers get into the filters, the fuel pump, and the carb. The result is the quiet sound and unplanned dead stick landings.
Everyone I know is having to handle ethanol contaminated fuel.
Several of us have tried the (supposedly) ethanol proof sloshes for the fiberglass tanks. Such efforts routinely resulted in more dead stick landings.
Our only viable response has been to remove the fiberglass tanks and fabricate/install aluminum tanks.

Richard

[rkwill]

Fellows,

Regarding Stabilizer.
It is to stop fuel from deteriorating during long storage periods and to stop the ethanol from seperating from the fuel.
It is not advertised as having any fiberglass tank protection value.

Richard

[Hoges]

My SH has 540mm (21.25") clearance from the underside of the cabin to the ground and a cylindrical fuel tank 400mm in diameter and 500mm (2') long with hemispherical ends will hold as much or more fuel and than the fibreglass tanks and could be slung under the keel.
Just an idea.
Scott

[MichaelBurton]

Originally Posted by Hoges

My SH has 540mm (21.25") clearance from the underside of the cabin to the ground and a cylindrical fuel tank 400mm in diameter and 500mm (2') long with hemispherical ends will hold as much or more fuel and than the fibreglass tanks and could be slung under the keel.
Just an idea.
Scott

Please be careful it will also lower the CG. The reason you have room under the landing gear is it was lengthened to raise the CG. You need the CG to be inline with the thrust to have a properly stabilized SH.

[okikuma]

A little over a year ago on another thread within our forum, I came across a video of a Continental O-200 powered RAF 2000. I'm fascinated over the method of mounting the Continental engine, and the external aluminum fuel tanks to his gyro. At that time, I was able to contact the owner of the specific RAF 2000 (Jimmy Meredith) and had a nice conversation with him last May. For what it's worth, I've copied and pasted my post below mainly to show his method of mounting his fuel tanks that others might be interested in and to evaluate as a possible alternative in solving their fuel tank problems when using ethanol based fuel.

Don't forget to watch the video.

Wayne
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Earlier today, I spoke with Gillispie "Jimmy" Meredith about his Continental O-200 powered RAF 2000 gyroplane N2029E.

http://www.vimeo.com/2021802

Jimmy is a great guy to speak with and was very gracious to take the time and answer all my questions about his gyroplane. Thanks Tim for your assistance in locating Jimmy.

As I figured, Jimmy's RAF gyro empty weight is lighter than the equivalent Subaru powered versions. What is surprising is how much lighter. Jimmy tells me that his gyro's current empty weight is just under 620 lb.! That is a significant weight reduction! Here is a two place EAB gyroplane that is LSA compliant and can have a 700 lb. useful load! I forgot to ask Jimmy what is the specific gross weight limit he has set for his gyro.

The Continental engine is really an upgraded C-90 with O-200 crank and pistons. The engine does not have a starter or generator/altenator. Jimmy says he has set 2900 rpm as his max rpm limit and is for take off only. In cruise flight, he operates it between 2400 - 2500 rpm and cruises between 70 - 80 mph. Jimmy says that the cylinder head temps are a cool 325 degrees and oil temps never climb above 160 degrees. For extra insurance, he added an oil cooler and it sits down low and near the prop. The prop he is using is a 68" Warpdrive and says he has measured 430 lb. of static thrust. I mentioned to Jimmy that figure seams low for his gyro. When I said perhaps if he used an IVO prop, he could obtain 600 lb. of static thrust, he agreed and that is in consideration. The two fuel tanks are 5 gallons each for a total of 10 gallons and it is a gravity fuel system. He mentioned that he might add a small header tank down low to increase the capacity. Jimmy is also looking into a wind powered generator for electrical power. I suggested that he look at the Kutoba series of alternators for light weight electrical power.

When asked how well does the gyroplane fly compared to the Subaru powered RAF 2000s, Jimmy says it much easier and feels more stable, even though it is a HTL gyro and has no horizontal stabilizer. I did not ask if he is planning on adding one in the future. He said that he flies the gyro conservatively and most often solo. I asked how was the performance with a passenger and he said it was alright, however he has only flown down the length of the runway with a passenger. After more experimentation and work, he'll then fly a pattern and then a short cross country with a passenger.

When I asked Jimmy why the Continental engine, he said he just feels more comfortable flying behind a certified aircraft engine. He also said that he believes that the initial cost, operating expenses and 1500 TBO life of the engine is still cheaper than setting up, installing with all the associated hardware, water cooled system, PSRU, and maintaining the Subaru.

Doing some quick figuring, Jimmy's gyro with a 200 lb. pilot, full tanks and oil (68 lb.), and with a 30' rotor, the disk loading would be 1.26 lb. per sq. ft. Add a 200 lb. passenger, the disk loading would be a respectable 1.54 lb. per sq. ft. Not bad at all for a two place gyro.

I think Jimmy is moving in the right direction in owning and flying a useful two place gyroplane. Just think what the performance would be with a O-320 Lycoming powered Sparrowhawk?

I invite comments about what Jimmy has done. Those of you out there that want to dwell on how Jimmy's gyro is a HTL aircraft with no horizontal stabilizer, that is not part of the discussion here. I want to concentrate on the benefits or detriments between the use of an air cooled aircraft engine vs. the Subaru.

Thanks everyone,

Wayne

[HAWK PILOT]

I have been thinking about the fuel tank issue. It seems that most of you agree that the ethanol in the auto fuel is the problem. I have a lycoming O-235 in my tomahawk. This engine is notorious for lead fouling. I use TCP by alcor to scavenge the lead. I have been using this for seven years and believe it or not, I have not fouled a single plug in this whole time. The TCP is cleared for use in certified aircraft. There is another product that is only for use in experimental engines called "Decalin". I also have some experience with this as well. (TCP occasionally goes on back order) Decalin has the same active scavenging agent as the TCP, but is not volatile as TCP. Therefore it is less of a problem to ship. Both products are readily available through aircraft spruce. My question is, why not run 100 LL and use either decalin or tcp to prevent the lead issue. Is there another reason that I am not aware of to not use 100 LL in the subaru engines.

[gyroplanes]

I used to maintain flight school airplanes and had my fill of fouling plugs in the O-235 Lyc.
I found that if I rotate the plugs, top to bottom, at each oil change, I never had a plug foul again.
The lower plugs foul, so I rotate them to the upper side where they clean themselves before they get too bad.
Since you are waiting around for each can of oil to glick in, try it....it worked for us.

[HAWK PILOT]

The TCP has completely eliminated the fouling issue for me. That is why I think that with the use of TCP or Decalin it might be possible to use 100 LL exclusively in the subaru and thereby avoid the issues with ethanol in autofuel causing breakdown of the fiberglass tanks.

[Steve McGowan]

Fouling of pluggs and 100LL won't run continous in a sub pawered gyro.. The injectors will also foul with the Low Lead in the fuel.

Originally I believe I started the thread about Sparrow Hawks gas tanks breaking down from what the hell is doin it..

I personally believe that the setup was not used to build the tanks safely enough . But who the hell am I.. Just the Dummy not wanting somebody burned to death because of a Dollar..

[HAWK PILOT]

Thanks Steve , just an idea. Is the enalapril helping Boo's cough?
Donnie

[Steve McGowan]

Haven't gotten it yet,,

Thanks

[MichaelBurton]

New news on fuel bladders for SH. I got an estimate back on the fuel bladders. The initial setup cost would be about $2000.00 USD. After that each tank would be close to $200.00 USD. If I get 10 sets ordered that would make the cost around $400.00 USD. for each tank.

If you have an open SH fuel tank it would help if you could give me the exact dimensions and layout of the tank. My tank is sealed and in use. This could impact the cost estimate. What I have is from the sales dept and is a very crude estimate.

So my question is who would spend the money. If you are still interested contact me by pm or phone. If I do not get more than ten committed people I will consider the project canceled.

[HAWK PILOT]

I have both of my tanks open right now. I will get the dimensions this weekend.
Donnie