RAF situation

[automan1223]

I have been reading and watching the debate about RAF 2000 machines for a long time. The root reason that has been put forth for so many crashes is that the machine is unstable, lacking a hs and centerline thrust.

I am curious and have this nagging feeling that is it possible that we might be overlooking something, some defect in materials or craftsmanship, installation of some part that might account for the flying great one second, dead the next. ?

I do not want to stir the RAF pot again, nor do I want to tarish RAF as a company or a kit, but I have a strong feeling that there is something we are all overlooking and while the direct cause might look like "a" it might actually be "b".

While we still have some smart old timers might we bring forth some ideas or theories about what it could be. For starters what did all the aircraft have in common ? Several of the most recent crashes had a hs installed and had a considerable amount of hours on them with experienced pilots. Or maybe I am all wrong.


Any thoughts ?

Jonathan
Oriental NC

[Gary_in_Orygun]

I don't get the same feeling as you. I've been following the conference discussions since 1999. I think most of the fatalities happened in machines that did not have a horizontal stabilizor and most-likely encountered a PPO.

There was one I remember that was because a rudder cable tightener came undone (not safety-wired) and the machine flipped front-to-back (now the engine thrust became an air brake).

Even though we already talked about the cheap rodends, I don't think there were any accidents due to those breaking. (Ken J. says there was. Scroll down to his reply.)

Ken J. has a better memory of much of this stuff.

[StanFoster]

Jonathon: There is a lot of negative press on the RAF. I agree it needs a stab...and having flown one now for 90 plus hours....I am very satisfied with how it flies.

Just e-mail some RAF owners and you will learn a lot. An overwhelming number of RAF pilots I talked to while making my decision to even buy a RAF ...convinced me that I would do just fine.

Well...they were absolutely correct. If I had known what I know now while I was finishing my RAF kit last winter...I would have really enjoyed the process. From all the negativety posted about it....it did make me wonder if I was doing the right thing.

From taxiing it ...to my first crow hops...to flying in high winds...I have yet to feel any quirks with controlling it. I have never been so relaxed as when flying my RAF.

I know that the SparrowHawk is even better...but in my situation..for the cash outlay I had available...the deal I came across....I would have done exactly the same thing again.

There are a lot of RAF's out there...and I have talked to many of them. Most do not post here.

I try to post exactly what I feel...and if I felt my RAF was uncomfortable flying in anyway...I sure would post about it.

I would buy another one in a heartbeat.


Stan

[Aussie_Paul]

You are spot on Stan. The one thing I hope you would do, if you had your time again, would be to incororate the extra couple of mods that we have proven to make the Raf even better, while you were building it. Yours and my transition to the Rafs was so much easier because we had already flown lower powered unstable gyros. You were lucky that you did not have to start without a stab!!!!!!!!!

There are conditions that can cause a bunt/PPO in a Raf with a stab. These conditions are possible but certainly not probable. Choosing, as you do Stan, not to fly in the conditions a CLT gyro with a stab can be comfortably flown in, you will always be happy, and that is wonderfull.

Jonathon, I have flown many hours in a standad Raf, Rafs with an effective stab, and Rafs with a variety of mods that move Raf closer to CLT. I finished with my Hybrid that is CLT and has a stab. To work through from the start to the present time was a great process. My feelings as an instructor went from having to use throttle ALL the time to stay alive to never having to have my hand on the throttle, with plenty of time to talk a student through any situation.

I do not like the way the Raf company does business. When I was their golden haired boy Down Under agent, they lied to me many times. Once the stab issue came up WELL you just could not discuss/debate/explain anything with/to them.

This is written, not to bash Raf, but to help Raf owners enjoy their investment in a Raf. Their are no doubt people out their who have spent the money and now may be too frightened to continue building. I say to those people don't dispair. Ring someone who cares. People like Stan, others who fly their Rafs with a stab in fine but not perfect conditions, and myself.

One thing that you do have to hand to Raf is, they had the "sizzle" right. That is, an enclosed 4 stroke powered cross country gyroplane with all the whistles and bells. Adjustable trim rotor brake anodizing heater etc. No one gave them a run for their money for many years.

They would have to be worried now.

Aussie Paul.

[StanFoster]

Paul: RAF has treated me very well...but...I would be worried if I were them. I would most definately buy a SparrowHawk if I were ordering a new kit. In my case...I stumbled upon a new partially built kit that was a steal. I never dreamed I would be owning a two place enclosed machine this soon.

Like you said..RAF had the sizzle....but they need to get back into research and development and get the market back. AAI is a top notch company and their SparrowHawk has to be killing their sales.

Paul....seriously...your Firebird really looks like it will be cutting edge. Down the road...when you get it marketed....I will be considering it.

Stan

[KenSandyEggo]

Gary, there is at least one accident caused by a rod-end bearing in the control system snapping. A flight instructor and student were taking off and it snapped still close to the ground. I believe they rolled in the air and the gyro hit the ground but both were unharmed some how. I would hate to think what would have happened if they were 500' AGL. Maybe someone with a better memory has better details.

Jim Mayfield's technician was loosening the nut on one of the control-rod bearings and the shaft snapped off in his hand. Two wrenches in a human's hands should not be capable of twisting the nut to snap the shaft. If you recall, Jim sent them to a metallurgy lab in SLC for analysis and posted the results. Anyone after reading this and still flying with RAF-supplied rod-end bearings in their control system has to be nuts.

[thallett]

I checked the dates: 1994 was the year I had my first and last PPO. It happened at about 15 feet in the air. I had training, but was inexperienced. Had rebuilt an RAF 1000 with no horizontal stab. My first takeoff (accidental) ended up on the ground on the nosewheel which "castered" the wrong way and dumped me. That feeling of total pitch instability set me looking, and even at that time the "forums" all discussed the horizontal stabilizer. The first thing I did was build a small (effective at fast forward) horizontal stab. Stability was totally different! I later changed the engine mounts to get close to centerline thrust. And castered the nose wheel "back" instead of the bicycle "forward" caster. As far as I'm concerned, THE FORUMS HAVE MADE MY DAY! Thanks, guys.
Tinkerin Tom in Port Orchard Washington

[daveeisler]

I tend to agree with Jonathan, When I was looking for my gyro and saw all the negative reports on the RAF. I was unhappy , this was the one I wanted. At that time the Sparrow Hawk was not yet avail. So I went with Aircommand. This is my first gyro and I have never flown a non CTL. machine , but I would have to think that with proper training a non CLT. would not be a huge concern, this is why I feel it could be in the building or materials used, I understand that the Sparrow Hawk does use many new and better materials, they do a lot more than a CLT and stabilizer kit. In fact I am thinking of selling my A.C. and getting one it is a very impressive machine.

[Gary_in_Orygun]

Thanks for the update Ken. I knew I could count on you to keep the record straight. I modified my post above.

[daveeisler]

Does anyone if RAF has upgraded thier rod end bearings or any other part of the aircraft?

[Doug Riley]

Jonathan: The physics of PPO in an RAF is so simple and compelling (600 lb. thrust x 1 foot offset = 600 ft.-lb. of PPO torque) that there's no reason to look farther.

[KenSandyEggo]

Gary, I also belive that a disconnected rudder-cable in a Sparrowhawk would be a non-event because of the centering-springs they have added to the rudder. I hardly use my rudder pedals anymore except to keep her straight on take-off or a crosswind landing. I used to do a sprightly tap-dance on the rudder pedals with the RAF tail with any kind of winds.

[Doug Riley]

Yes, a tall tail turns a gyro into an Ercoupe with rotor blades.

[PatONeal]

Speaking of tails, it seems the recent trend is toward the all flying tail, tall or otherwise. Any opinions on wether this is good or bad? Do they fly differently than the standard type?

Pat O'Neal

[Gary_in_Orygun]

My rudder has the anti-servo tab installed, which would also help if a rudder cable came undone. At cruise I never touch it.