Xenon, what do you think?

[route66]

The Xenon is a remarkable machine, well built, nice simple styling, and great visibility and has the look of a winner. The fact that it has a new aircraft engine is a plus. I had the pleasure of a ride with Scott Tinnesand in Mesa and it did everything well. The 912 (100hp) that is in Rob's machine did all it could with two 200lb. guys at 1100 altitude on an 80* day. It did get us air born with a fair rate of climb of 400-450fpm. Not a hot rod, but did its job and did it well. The 912 with the lightweight aircraft is perfect for people who live and fly without density altitude problems and those that do a lot of solo flying. My reserve is that I live at 7000' and the 912 would not be enough. The 914 (115hp) would be my choice for engine although I will have to wait to see if adding 15 hp will be enough to be viable at my base altitude. Another engine choice is the 912rst (122hp) which while unproven might be the best choice for power to weight.

My overall impression of the Xenon is Wow! Raphael designed a simple, lightweight and functional gyro which has fantastic looks. The cabin is a dream with its space. We had two 200lb. guys and we had space to spare and the seats were what I would call 60 minute seats, (60 minutes being the comfort factor). The visability from the cockpit is great with windows everywhere. The sound levels were impressive as far as gyros go. I watched it fly as a bystander with a couple airport junkies and it didn’t have that loud sound I was used to. The two guys I was sitting with had no idea what a gyro is and when asked about the sound coming from the Xenon, they thought it was a quiet helicopter. I put it more as a loud Cessna.

I wish I could give you more input on its flight characteristics but I was a simple sole taking a demo flight being impressed by a new design. If the 914 has the power and responds even close to how Raphael, Rob and Scott has described I will have one. It is a nice machine and if you say it fast enough the price is a bargain.

What is your impression?

[ventana7]

Brandon,

Thanks for your honest and wonderful report.

The truth is that everyone who has flown it so far has been very impressed. The more I fly it the more I like it.

As far as the performance difference between a non turbo and turbo I looked up some numbers-- since I live in Colorado I am concerned too.

Phoenix at 1,500' on an 80 degree day with low humidity is about 3,000 foot density altitude. Looking at the 912 performance charts for altitude it shows we are loosing about 25-30 percent of our power as compared to what we have at sea level.

That means the day you flew our 100 hp engine was putting out about 72 hp. The 914 will be putting out 115 hp at Phoenix or Denver or anywhere else up to 15,000'. So you are going from 72 HP to 115 HP- an increase of 43 HP. That is a 60% increase in horsepower. If the machine can climb at 500 fpm with 2 big guys on 72 hp I think it will be a rocket with a Horsepower increase of 60%.

The RST is even more effective with 122 max HP (3 minutes only, then 110 HP continous).

As far as manifold pressure the Rotax 912 performance curve shows about 30 inches at sea level at full power of 5800 rpm. Raphael told me the other day in a static test of the RST they were able to get 45 psi of manifold pressure.
So even at very high altitude the RST should be able to deliver its fully rated max continous HP of 110.

[Victor Duarte]

Hi Rob, Brandon

i wonder if you asked the earlier xenon owners before you made up your mind.

there were some xenon sold by here but no one flying regularly.

the machine is sweet and can fly well..when it flies. But selling gyros is more than just delivering a bunch of bolts.

I have respect for you and i don't want to rain on your parade nor be a negative person or a jalous person, just telling you to be well informed about all aspects of the xenon we had some echanted persons here that are not enchanted so far.

[ScottTinnesand]

Victor,

Are you referring to earlier models of the Xenon (with the Hirth F30 powerplant) or are you talking about the current design?

I appreciate your caveat about not being negative, but I feel that your comments would be more constructive and better understood if you provide a little more info than "disenchanted people".

If there are issues to rectify, let's get at it. We'd like all the info you have. Improvements can't be made until they're identified.

Thanks,
Scott

[Harry_S.]

Originally Posted by ScottTinnesand

Victor,

Are you referring to earlier models of the Xenon (with the Hirth F30 powerplant) or are you talking about the current design?

I appreciate your caveat about not being negative, but I feel that your comments would be more constructive and better understood if you provide a little more info than "disenchanted people".

If there are issues to rectify, let's get at it. We'd like all the info you have. Improvements can't be made until they're identified.

Thanks,
Scott

Well put, Scott.

I hate hit and runners.


Cheers

[Victor Duarte]

Hi Scott, harry

i'm not hit and runner, just had connection problems.

ok, first , i have to say that i was interested in the xenon when i saw it, i really didn't know anything about Mr cellier and still don't know him personnally.

the facts are that no one here has a good opinion, not really about the machine, but about the way mr cellier does business.

i cound talk with his ex-test pilot and with one of the very first customers as well as persons that worked with him : saying they have a bad opinion is quite gentle...

if you browse the forum you will find that i have talked about mr cellier and his relationship with mr ackerman about the xenon cabin.

since this time, i felt people thought i was, as said harry, a hit and runner, but i am not, i just took time to talk with informed people and make my own opinion.

mr cellier did what he did, nothing personnal but i wouldn't like a second "don lafleur" in the gyro business.

mr cellier didn't leave good "souvenirs" here and is not wellcome anymore because no one would like to go in business with him, some persons like my friend Mr ackerman that was a very good man lost some money in working with him.

ANYWAY, if mr cellier sincerely tries to do well and forget about the past, then every thing is fine, the xenon is or can be a good machine, and , if mr cellier changes and runs his business correctly, i wish him good luck.

you may think i am a complainer, no, i have just been treated as a liar on this forum and i came back with some nuggets in my pocket.

enough said, you've been warned, i did it because around me no one dares, i do. I have no interest in making the xenon or mr cellier disapear, we need this kind of machine, but like others, i like correctness in business.

[Victor Duarte]

just one more thing :
have a look at this machine, very similar to xenon isn't it ?

Mr Doleac did it...but he BOUGHT and PAID the moulds to Mr ackerman's son and he has now the right to sell this machine that flies very well.

some persons wil recognize the youg man on the pic.

[Brent_Brown]

Don't recognize him.

[ventana7]

Mr. Duarte,

It seems there are two sides to the Ackerman story and I guess it happened a few years ago and it involved Mr. Ackerman before he passed away, not his son who later stepped in.

For you or I to judge it now from hearing one side or the other is ludicrous.

In any event the Xenon cabin has undergone numerous major improvements since then and is being made in Poland by highly qualifed composite fabricators.

Rob

[ventana7]

Brandon,

Like you I am very anxious to fly the Xenon in Colorado and report actual performance numbers but until we have a turbo model here we can only extrapolate from numbers we already have.

I was having an email conversation with another of our brethern who lives at higher altitude and below is what I mentioned to him.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So here is what we know so far.

I flew a standard Xenon in Poland with Raphael- it was cold and at sea level- with him at 200 lbs and me at 175 we climbed easily at 800 fpm and cruised at 78 knots (GPS bidirectional averaged readings) at only about 5200 rpm. We did 70 knots on the GPS at 4200 rpm The machine was brand new and we could not go to full throttle as we were at red line at 3/4 throttle. He later added another degree of prop pitch and performance went up as expected. I never measured our take-off roll but it was short.
So that is how the machine performed at sea level with 100 hp available and temps a bit colder than standard ISA conditions.

Since the turbo gives MORE HP than that, (115 to 122 HP) depending on which turbo you go with you should get 15-22% better performance than that. As you know the turbos give virtually sea level performance upto 15,000'.

We have been flying for 2 weeks now in in Phoenix at 1,500 feet. At 85 degrees we have a density altitude of about 3,000'. The Rotax performance graphs tell us we have about 72 HP available at that density altitude.

We are are seeing climbs of 500 fpm and cruise at 5200 of about 65 knots, with Scott 205 lbs and me 175 lbs.

The Phoenix numbers at 3,000' and 72 Hp seem to correlate to the Poland numbers at sea level and 100 HP. That is the Phoenix horsepower is roughly 28% lower than Poland and the climb and cruise are about roughly 28% lower too.

So you have 2 relieable sets of numbers that seem to confirm each other. Since the turbo will deliver sea level performance at your altitude and since it is 15-22% more HP than we have with the 912, I feel confident in saying the turbo models in Flagstaff will climb with a 400 lb payload (plus fuel) at 800-1,000 fpm or and cruise at 80-90 knots.

Obviously the larger blades will add more lift and more speed at the cost of slightly higher workload and possibly a bit of stick shake.

As far as the machine itself -- I can truthfully say that neither myself, nor Scott nor any of the half dozen very knowledgable gyro pilots who have now flown it have found ANYTHING to dislike in its handling.

As you saw, it is simply a dream to fly- no cabin shake, hands off flying once trimmed, almost no stick shake. Huge cabin and quiet.

The few negatives we or others have found have been small things like suggesting chafe protection here or there, or pins or safety wire on some bolts, etc. Those are things we will work on in the near future.

[Heron]

I think Zeeoo is trying to warn forum mates, fair game!
Whatever business Rafael will conduct from now on it is an entirely different history to me, and I also use the 3 strikes rule.
The Xenon looks to me like a winner and I would like to see the more powerfull version in flight.
The crew put together in the US carries a lot of weigth and I am not talking about Tom MIlton but what this guys can do as a team.
Qué será . . .será . . .
Rafael seems to me a fair guy and in time all will be ok, if a mistake was made . . .
thanks
Heron

[ScottTinnesand]

Victor,

Thank you for your response.

I'm not familiar with the names you mentioned (except for Raphael) or the situations you described. I don't know about the past, but I do believe that "the past does not equal the future" (quote of Tony Robbins).

Regards,
Scott

[Xenon-designer]

Hi to everyone.

First of all, we are happy to let you discover THE new website : www.celieraviation.eu
Have a nice visit.

NOW : again this ZEEOO french trouble maker !!!
Still this guy don't have the balls to come and talk to me direct, not even show his name. Just he keep telling lies.
I don't have a bad reputation, only for the jalous people that are not even able to fly...
The aircopter machine was inspired from the Xenon, but WE are the owner of the forms as said and repeted again, bought completely at the time of Ackerman father before he passed.
We are now starting to fight his son, has he sold without rights an old version of OUR concept.
The "young" man (no so young by the way) was one of our employe, he signed a confidentiality contract for leaving the company, we shall now make a full research of what he is doing, and if necessary he will be procecuted.

To all, understand that the french market and ultralight world is far different than other countries.
Money is kind a tabou, and success brings jalous people, and gyro community is a bag of crabs.

I feel personally attacked, i request this ZEEOO to call me direct and meet me in France or here at the factory. I cannot let that guy saying lies like that.
But i know he'll never do it.

Lies always return to the sender in negative.
Shall i do the same against ZEEOO ?? Easy...i got informations too...
But I am not at that low level attitude.

But if he changes attitude, we are not bad people, and he will be welcomed to try the Xenon, even if he can't afford one.

I think this forum could be used better. But it is public, and anyone can say anything.

Thanks to the guys that defends the Xenon and its designer.
Without heart and true passion it would never exist.
I needed to be persistant, to keep on track, to believe in it, and not to lessen to guy like the ZEEOO, how are numerous in France...

To Scott, it was a great plesaure and honor to fly with you to demonstrate you the xenon.

You and Rob by loving this machine, makes all our team happy !

Keep fly safe.

[Victor Duarte]

ok Mr cellier,

you say i'm a lier. i've not the balls.

I write in the name of some people that think exactly what i've said. oh in fact they don't think that, they think you're a crook.
I'm just angry that persons like you that did so wrong here could go and claim "bla bla bla" gossip ...
who has the balls ? those who shut up or those who say the truth ?
I take the risk to be seen as a bad person because the xenon is such a success and no one wants someone to rain on the parade.
I sell nothing, my only interest is truth.

not theballs to meet you ? let me laugh, why don't you come to le bois de la pierre ? i am ready to meet you an hear your explanations and i am ready to meet you when i can, where i can but le bois de la pierre meeting is the only holidays time for me.

i will reply point by point.




Still this guy don't have the balls to come and talk to me direct, not even show his name. Just he keep telling lies.
>>My complete name is on my signature.

I don't have a bad reputation, only for the jalous people that are not even able to fly...
>> then telle me how i heard so bad comments about you ?
it seems, just like people told me, that with you, everyone else is stupid and the fault is always someone else's fault, never yours.

The aircopter machine was inspired from the Xenon, but WE are the owner of the forms as said and repeted again, bought completely at the time of Ackerman father before he passed.
>>FALSE, first you didn't pay mr Acerman for his work, you bought ONE cabin then asked another manufacturer to make a copy, you didn't pay this manufacturer again and, then, you wen to poland to make ANOTHER copy.
Mr DOLEAC BOUGHT the first molds and has the right to sell his machine that is peprfectly designed and TESTED before he sells the kit.
you should prosecute Mr DOLEAC , why dont you ?


The "young" man (no so young by the way) was one of our employe, he signed a confidentiality contract for leaving the company, we shall now make a full research of what he is doing, and if necessary he will be procecuted.
>>> this person is your ex-test pilot and i've talked with him and took a lot of notes to not be accused of lying.

To all, understand that the french market and ultralight world is far different than other countries.
Money is kind a tabou, and success brings jalous people, and gyro community is a bag of crabs.
>>> and i think you are one, you just run and hide but you know very well that NO ONE wants to hear about you here, NOR see you again because you should pay a lot of people for things you never paid.
curious, i never heard bad comments about AVERSO, MAFFRE or DOLEAC.

I feel personally attacked, i request this ZEEOO to call me direct and meet me in France or here at the factory. I cannot let that guy saying lies like that.
But i know he'll never do it.
>>> ok why not ? you wanna try to convince me or threat me ?
you know, when i hear so bad things about someone, i tend to think there's a serious concern about this person.

Lies always return to the sender in negative.
>>> OH YES ! and people that don't pay for the work may face the truth one day.

Shall i do the same against ZEEOO ?? Easy...i got informations too...
But I am not at that low level attitude.
>>> OH OH ... try to frighten me ?? well please , just do it !! i'm curious to know what kind of information you have about me ? .... my god ! you hacked my computer and found porn pics.... bad bad boy.

But if he changes attitude, we are not bad people, and he will be welcomed to try the Xenon, even if he can't afford one.
>>> yes i wanted to try one....before i took my informations.. i can't afford one.... and i add : i'v nothing for sale.

I think this forum could be used better. But it is public, and anyone can say anything.
>>> i can talk about "AIR DRAKKAR" or his normandy friend or the spanish ROBE (an important HARLEY DAVIDSON parts importer), or about the machine you sold in new caledonia, with floats, for ...fire-fighting. but you will certainly say that are lies and that they all are jalous people. But they bought several machines to you..

Thanks to the guys that defends the Xenon and its designer.
>> the xenon is a nice machine, the way it has been done is not as nice.

Without heart and true passion it would never exist.
I needed to be persistant, to keep on track, to believe in it, and not to lessen to guy like the ZEEOO, how are numerous in France...
>>yeah all the french are loosers and complainers... you're the only one that is willing to build a successfull business... and we don't appreciate nice new machines... yeah yeah

i have freedom of speech and i intend to keep it, if you want to prosecute me, then , just do it.

i admit that those things have been said to me by persons that know you, maybe they are wrong maybe they are just angry customers.

give me you pone number please, i will call you when you're in france.

i think i told what i had to say, my goal is not a crusade against you ok, journalists should inquire , it is not my job.

[Heron]

Raphael (now with proper spelling)
Thanks for coming here and explaining your side of this coin . . .it shows the importance of our Forum (Gyrodom´s grape vine)
You could have chosen the private way but instead you gave us your direct word on the matter. Thank you again.
I hope ZEEOO talks to you and get things straight, we all know that thruts always lies between opinions or perceptions.
The Xenon is one of the best products presented in this last 5 years and deserves the title of Grand Champion.
It is a jewel!
Hope to see you again in person . . .it was a fine experience to me!
Heron
OOps . . .too late!!