OK gyro pilot passes away

[Hognose]

Others have said that the NTSB would have its preliminary on Kelly Teague's mishap up by Friday.

They have a preliminary report up now. For a preliminary on an experimental, it appears to me to be reasonably thorough. There are some facts in the report that we have not seen before. I will not comment further on it, but will let the investigators do their work. I am sure they will try very hard to determine the cause of an accident to a former member of their community.

http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...21X00207&key=1

cheers

-=K=-

[Doug Riley]

One possibility: Disconnection of one control pushrod. The pilot would try to continue controlling the aircraft with the stick. Given the one remaining pushrod, the control forces would be off-center. This could result in ineffectual rolling movements of the rotor head. If the trim spring was set so that some back-stick was required, the head would tip forward and stay that way once one rod broke free.

Removing the HS could cause a change in trim that might require continuous stick pressure, either fore or aft. The pilot would be unable to maintain that pressure once the pushrod broke.

This is a hypothesis only. There would likely be clues in the control system remains that could prove/disprove it.

[automan1223]

Do NOT beat yourself up about this. You built a great machine that IMPRESSED the heck out of this MECHANIC. It flew well when I saw you in the seat. I can only gather that an experienced CFI flew well and flew the heck out of it too. I know this hurts and I feel the loss for this man I never met. When we get in the seat we all know the risks. It beats getting killed on the highway by some loser or sitting in diapers in some nursing home not knowing what day of the week it is.

Ron, it was unprofessional of you to comment about your LIMITED experience in the seat. Your a Dominator pilot.....

The prelim sounds like a loss of control in pitch, while the weather would challenge me in my heavy ass 2 place, I am sure it was within the skill level of this CFI. Automated weather is NOTORIOUSLY wrong and undershoots gusts, and wind. It can only see wind at that location.....

Respectfully,

Jonathan

Originally Posted by Screw

Screw-In

OMG! My condolences to the Teague Family. I fell horrible. I have never in my life had anyone die in a machine that I built.

Kelly was a hellova a nice guy, and I enjoyed meeting with him. We spend the day together when I sold him that gyro. He struck me as a great instructor by his knowledge and demenor. I think that was Nov. 2004.

This just totally breaks my heart. He would send me emails every now and again to let me know how things were going. I will miss him.

Thanks Ron, I considered your post to be in poor taste considering the last time you or I flew it was October/November of 2004. Kelly has been flying that gyro for that last 2 + years.




Screw-Out

[Harry_S.]

Just one minor comment...the witness' info in the preliminary doesn't really jibe with the witness' info in the news report?!

Hopefully an IRT member or two can be called in to help in the structural materials investigation.


Cheers

[GyroRon]

Originally Posted by automan1223

Ron, it was unprofessional of you to comment about your LIMITED experience in the seat. Your a Dominator pilot.....



Jonathan

Jonathan, you have said alot of just plain wacky, dumb, off the wall stuff over the years I have known you.... but this one sentence here takes the cake.

How many gyros have you flown Jonathan? And do you think you can come to some simple conclusions about a gyro from a flight or two in it? Like if the gyro flys nose down? Or if in a throttle off, steep nose down descent you could end up close to if not on the rear stop when you pull back stick to bring the gyro back to straight and level?

Your a automechanic.... Don't you think if you use someone elses Impact gun, or ratchet for a hour or two, that you could draw some conclusions to how it works? Give me a fricking break!

Dig up any of the videos that were posted of John flying that gyro and tell me the nose wasn't flying low as he flew by....

John may be upset with me for saying anything. As a friend I am supposed to keep my mouth shut I guess... But the facts as far as I am concerned was the pilot appeared to be a top notch pilot. The gyro was constructed very well. It was a proven machine with many hours on it before John sold it. The gyro does down and there has to be a reason, and these things I noted were the only things I could think of that might have played some role in the accident, even though it is highly unlikely they did.

This is no different than when some people threw out ideas and suggestions of things to check after Terry and Bills accident last year.

Anything that can help a investigation, anything that may prevent another accident should be brought to light and followed up on.... not sweep under a rug because someone I consider a friend built the thing, or because I am a Dominator pilot - which is the most ridiculous thing I think I have ever heard you say considering I have owned several other gyros that were NOT Dominators and I have flown just about every type gyro at least once, hell I even flew yours for the first time from the backseat without any problems.... how in the world can a simple DOMINATOR pilot do that???

In the end, I wish I had said nothing, because what I did say almost certainly has no bearing on this crash.

[GyroRon]

I just read the NTSB report Kevin posted.... Case closed as far as I am concerned, He took off the horizontal stab, and is out flying in gusty strong winds and bunted over, plain and simple. Why in the world would someone take a horizontal stab off his gyro when it flew so good with it on??? a 2 pound piece of tubing covered in fabric, that was already on this machine when he bought it, could have prevented this. What a shame

[Hognose]

Two comments, three really.

1. John and Ron, please knock it off. You're both better guys than to squabble like this. I bet a factor in this is how upset you both are over this crash. C'mon fellas, shake hands. (And please don't come out fighting on the bell).

2. A great guy (whom I don't think I ever met) is dead and his family and friends are hurting. A beautiful machine is destroyed. I realize you all want answers; let's wait and see, shall we? Bear in mind that an accident investigation is a scientific proceeding. You can only reach conclusions that the evidence supports, and you need to be ready to throw those conclusions out if the evidence contradicts them. But there may never be enough evidence to be completely, judicially conclusive. That's why they determine a "most probable cause" and "contributing factors" rather than a definitive "cause." We all want certainty, but when you think about it, the integrity of the investigation process is more important. Sad to say, but they will investigate 300-odd fatal GA accidents in 2007.

3. As I said, I'm not going to make any comments on cause. No disrespect to you guys who do, I understand the thirst for certaintyy, but I just think it's premature. When the factual report is complete, we'll know much more. That will be some months in the works.

4. I said three, but here's a bonus comment to answer Harry: in my experience (and everyone else's that I know of) eyewitness reports are of limited value. They often are dead wrong when you examine the physical evidence. Eyewitness reports via the media are particularly unreliable. That's because the media value immediacy more than accuracy, and they value sensationalism above all. They are trying to get a dramatic quote out of the witness (and they often dont much care if the person really is a witness, but that's another story). Accident investigators are aiming to get a different kind of recollection and there are a number of techniques they use to try to get as accurate a comment as they can. But there are limits to all witness statements, because human memory is not like a computer disk. It's more or less created on the fly every time we call it up, and like a psychological Heisenberg principle, every time we call it up changes it again.

Here is a law review article on some of the limits of eyewitnesses:
http://www.law.wayne.edu/Faculty/Fac...al%20Cases.htm

Here's a blog that links to a scientific paper for the courts. It's kind of alarming that we've had 125 people convicted thanks to eyewitnesses, who were subsequently exonerated by physical evidence. Ouch!
http://circuit10.blogspot.com/2006/0...yewitness.html

Here's another article on witnesses, from a cop's point of view:
http://www.opinionet.com/article.php...f536626e7b7cb8

I'm not aware of any peer-reviewed articles on reliability of mishap eyewitnesses, but it's plausible that they are no more reliable than crime witnesses. The psychology of both highly stressful, life-and-death situations seems similar.

Bottom line -- eyewitness statements are helpful to the degree that they gibe with the tale told by the physical evidence.

I hope I haven't ticked anybody off here. That's not what I'm trying to do.

cheers

-=K=-

[C. Beaty]

If this was in fact a bunt, there will be telltale rotor strike marks on the vertical tail. There will be a sharp crease near the top of the tail and a less sharp one near the base of the tail. That is the invariable pattern.

[barnstorm2]

HStab / bunt or not it sounds like this guy was WORKING on the gyro and making changes.

That makes me think of mechanical failure. How many of us have 'spaced' and left a tool on the engine or a nut or bolt un-safteywired or.......

[GyroRon]

Kevin, your right, there is no way of knowing that he bunted just because he took off the stab and cause it was windy and gusty and because eye witness accounts suggest a bunt. It could have been any of a number of other things.

I still think this is yet another example of why you should have a horizontal stab on your gyro, and yes Mad Mike... you read my mind

[Doug Riley]

Given Kelly's experience in hot aircraft, including other Brock gyros with no effective HS (per his Web site), a bunt is far from a sure thing.

[chuter]

I'm going to start a new thread called "Discussion of OK KB2 accident"; can we take this discussion there and leave this as more of a memorial thread?

Maybe I started it in the wrong area.

Maybe one of the admins could move the posts starting with the one where MadMan Mike called Kelly stupid.

[enewbold]

Originally Posted by Doug Riley

Given Kelly's experience in hot aircraft, including other Brock gyros with no effective HS (per his Web site), a bunt is far from a sure thing.

I agree, Doug. While it sounds like a mechanical failure to me, please fellas, let's show his family some courtesy and respect, AND let the IRT people involved analyze the machine and associated components at the scene.

Sadly,
Ed Newbold, Columbus, OH

[Brent_Brown]

Hey ED NEWBOLD will you reply to my email or did I piss you off too.

Brent Brown
email ezgb@earthlink.net

[Mike Schallmann]

Ah - -I see that I have been surgically removed from this thread --