How much are you willing to risk?

I took this from another thread I posted this in this morning. Thought it would be a good topic to discuss since many here have big bucks invested in their machines and others are looking to upgrade sooner or later.

Now not to pour salt on a open wound, but I think this accident may help be a wake up call for some others out there. I mean by this.... Alot of us are not rich, most of us do not have 15-40 grand of extra cash sitting around doing nothing, and no one I have met yet has a money tree in the backyard. It is so easy to crash and trash a gyro - or any aircraft for that matter. At some dollar amount a person has to stop and step back and ask themselves are they willing to accept that a small accident might total their toy and they will be out of their money.... and then they have to ask themselves if the joys of flying are worth the risk, then how much risk money wise it is worth?

Sure with a rotorcraft rating, and owning the right make and model gyro you can get insurance - Hull coverage - but this insurance costs a very big pretty penny and can add several hundred dollars per month of operating expenses, I believe most policys run around 3500-4000$ per year for most two place gyros.

I myself would love to trade in my Dominator and get a two place gyro. But I have no rotorcraft rating and simply couldn't afford or justify the cost of the insurance policy. I have more or less made a decision that the most I am willing to risk is 5-10 grand which only allows for me to own a single seat gyro. If I trashed my Dominator I would be hurting, but I wouldn't be hurting as bad as if I trashed a new Sparrowhawk with no insurance. Heck I just tore up my blades and I am hurting, I couldn't even imagine having a loan out on my house or borrowed money off a credit card to buy a expensive two place and then it ends up stolen, burned in a fire, or simply trashed due to a landing gone wrong.

In our excitement for this sport, and flying in general... We need to step back and look at worse case events and then decide how much un-insured money are we willing to risk for the joys of owning a flying these machines. I won't own a aircraft that costs me more than 10-15 grand without full hull insurance coverage and if I can't get the insurance or it costs too much, then I guess I won't be getting that aircraft. I got 42 thousand dollars tied up in my RV-4, and if I trashed it with no insurance I would be devastated. Insurance for it was 1600$ a year and so for a little over a hundred bucks a month I can relax and know that if the worse case happens I won't be out of my 42 grand and I could pay off my plane and walk away debt free. Think about it guys....

I'll show you risk

I'll show you risk

Ron, everything is relative. To fully insure my LongRanger for both hull and liability is about $30,000 A YEAR! Since I don't fly enough to justify that kind of premium, I do with just Liability at "only" 2,500 per year. IF the helicopter gets stuffed, it is really going to financially hurt, if I am still around. However this also makes me very careful in maintaining and flying it. I never try to take any kind of risk, or fly over any unfriendly area to a emergency landing if possible. There are always risk to flying, some are just more unnecessary than others. The picture below is what happened to my partner in the last helicopter I owned(it had no insurance either) when he took a unnecesary risk. All 5 people onboard walked(swam) away unhurt, but it cost him most of his lifes' savings. It was a total loss into saltwater. I realize that I will never be able to get another one again if I damage the one I have now, a very powerful safety tool indeed. If you treat your Dominator the same way you treat your, "RV", I bet you would not have taken off in the gyro from the short field in the rain again, would you?

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH N79LR

The short field in the rain take off with the added bonus of dragging through a soybean field - and then a few days later smacking my blades into the hangar - has made me take a look at how I was pushing it a bit too far. You can be sure I will be more careful next time.

My gyro is paid for, I owe nothing on it and if I crashed it to pieces I would not be hurt too bad money wise. My airplane I still owe plenty of money on and will likely be paying for it for a few years to come, no insurance and a crash and it would really hurt me.

I think of my plane and gyro as more of investments than just frivolous toys. I mean I fully expect to be able to sell them if needed to recoupe at least the majority of what I have invested in them. Not money making investments for sure, but not items that end up having little to no value once bought either.

To have something as expensive as a Bell Helicopter and not have it insured.... OMG I just couldn't live with myself if It ever got hurt. And you could not be responsible for the damage, what if the hangar floods again? Or catches fire? what about a bird strike or some other thing that causes major damage??? But at the same time I don't know you Scott and for all I know you could have that money tree in the back yard. I do know several guys around here flying expensive airplanes with no insurance.... they have no problem paying 100+ grand on a RV-8 or Harmon Rocket, but don't want to pay the 3 grand a year cost of insuring it just in case.

Funny you should mention that, Ron. I'm probably going to sell the tandem Dominator and get out of the instruction biz. The amount tied up in the machine (with its over-priced Rotax 912S) is just too much. Depreciation alone puts it in the "loss" category financially each year, not to mention the risk of losing the whole thing in a student "landing."

Of course, this is a perspective from a pretty cold climate. An operator located in a place where the weather allows year-round flying would get more use out of the equipment than we Vermonters can.

Borrowing for an investment is sensible. IMHO, one shouldn't borrow to buy leisure/fun gadgets, vacations and the like.

If I crash mine it will have to sit as a pile of scrap metal for the foreseeable future.

I've run up my credit card more than I like in the building process, and now I'm struggling a bit to get it paid off.

Like Scott said, it makes you more cautious knowing that if you break your toy you don’t get another one.

But hey, I got one of my main goals accomplished that’s been in my heart all of my adult life; built and flown my own gyro. So I’m ahead of the game even if I stuff it.

Ron,

Another thing to add to this equation is family. I have no dependents.

Also, because we can not rent gyros for N-Numbered time to apply for Private Pilot time I still would have had to build an n-numbered single place to get my ticket. I wrecked my gyro but I still have my ticket.

Michael's post put it very well from my perspective. I have wanted to fly since I was a tot. I have built my own gyro, learned to fly it, got my private lsc, shared the joy.

Now I get to learn to rebuild a gyro.

Yus guys are getting close to something I (and my wife) think about often with regards to taking passengers along. Some of you 2-place flyers are very free with giving rides to lots of people. I would love to do the same thing to share the experience and promote the hobby, but what about liability?

I currently do not have liability insurance, so if I hurt a passenger and got sued (or if I did us both in), my wife and our kids would most likely be wiped out. Hence, I very-rarely give rides and give a wide berth to things that I might damage with the gyro.

Is this something that most of you (2-place flyers) ignore?

Training and insurance costs are harder to mentally justify when they're such a large percentage of the cost of the aircraft. And unlike most fixed-wings, most experimental gyroplanes depreciate, and are worth less built and tested than they were as kits still in the box.

Part of this comes down to the question, is low-and-slow flight in a gyro worth as much as what an airplane can do? To most people, no. Guys like Stan Foster, who enjoys flying his gyro cross-country, may differ. Ron seems typical of most of us, spending $42K for a used, experimental, two-place fixed-wing with a timed-out engine, but struggling to justify half that for a used, experimental, two-place gyro.

I've had some difficult conversations with myself in the last year about my Sport Copter, which is a fairly pricey single-place, even buying the unbuilt kit out of an estate sale. My kids are grown and gone, but a divorce wiped out my savings, I'm struggling with a new business, and I've had to eat tuna and pasta and go without furniture for almost two years to get my kit paid off. I still need a helmet, radio, other accessories, and another 13 hours of dual instruction to get the rating. Even if I fly accident-free, there will be more costs.

If you're doing it for recreation, you have to just really want to fly. There's no way it pencils out.

Paul: Hang in there pal...you'll make it.


Cheers

I have gone close a couple of times to going into substantial debt for the schmicko gyro I thought I had to have. Being a natural born scrooge I have stuck with the "jalopy" I have put together from bits and pieces.

Just recently the temperature gauge climbed rapidly, couldnt put down, flew back to the strip. Coolant was pouring from the exhausts (cracked heads).

$700 to the local auto salvage centre and a low klm EA81 engine on its way.

I have 5 kids, mortgages etc. etc. Might not be ideal but my gyroing stays low budget.

Cheers

I'm going to Oregon the 25th for 8 days. I'd like to help you out. But I don't think my wife would like me leaving her, on our vacation, to give Gyro instruction.

Isn't there other instructors there?

I guess there is two ways of looking at risk. In my case I researched to find the safest gyro or the one that would fly with the least risk. The money part just didnt matter compared to that. Just another point of view!

Ron,

I have to agree with your thinking. Since we got started flying gyros, we've always talked about a 2-place. But having trashed two sets of blades, and a number of props, it's hard to swallow the thought of wrecking a two-place.

Just like you, our single-place is paid for, and if one of us stuffs it, our life wouldn't be changed financially, just mentally(missing the flying experience).

We've been tempted a number of times, especially when Stan sold his gyro, to jump into a two-place. But we couldn't pay cash for it, and have agreed we won't borrow to buy. Not sure whether Sport Pilot is going to make getting affordable gyro insurance easier, so we'll continue to fly our single-place.

The one other option we might consider is a Butterfly, so I can have a minimal flying machine for the majority of the flying I do, and save wear and tear on the Air Command, by Cathy doing most of the flying on it. But again,
that's not going to happen until we have ready cash for it.

It really hurt my heart when Tim O. indicated he still has 8 years of paying for his broken gyro. That has to hurt mentally and physically for Tim. And I still applaud him for his decision to rebuild. It's his life, and like he indicates, he has no family to support.

Gary said how I mostly feel. I take up my immediate family only. It was not my intentions to give rides risking my families future should something happen.

Insurance will be mandatory someday and is already in some places. I am going to definately have a good liability policy....but the best you can get for a passenger is 100,000.00. That helps in a minor mishap but would be peanuts should something major happen.

I talked to three different lawyers and all agreed that those waivers being signed that basically say "you will be killed if you ride in this machine" wont hold up in court at all.

I have found a good company that will insure my SparrowHawk with liability...hull damage whether sitting or flying...and that puny $100,000 passenger insurance. The rate quoted wasnt bad at all....but each persons quote is going to be unique to them and their experience. Years flown....hours flown.....incidents....etc..etc....etc..

As far as my financing my gyro flying....NOT A CENT....thats why I graduated from my Air Command....to my RAF...sold several in between....and rat holed those profits...and will have my SparrowHawk free and clear. I will insure this machine as its too major an investment and the premiums are worth the peace of mind. My RAF was one thing...because there are many out their for parts...but the SH is a different animal.

One other thing.....before I ever even considered getting back into flying gyros....first and foremost was that my life insurance policy would not in the least be voided by my gyro flying. I have a very major policy and it guarantees my wife's life would go on very comfortably should something happen. I would not be able to look her in the eye if this was not the case. I just plain and simply would not fly.

Stan

barnstorm2 said:

I have built my own gyro, learned to fly it, Now I get to learn to rebuild a gyro.

Click to expand...

Tim, don't be disheartened. There is a certain joy in rebuilding, knowing that you have checked out every single part prior to reassembly, and knowing that now you have a good excuse to do those small alterations/improvements that you always wanted to do but never got round to it while your machine was in flying condition.
Keep us informed of your progress.

Paul, I had no problem spending 42 grand on my experimental with the timed out engine because it was a good buy, was worth the asking price then and even without rebuilding the engine, it will only go up in value. All the Vans line of experimental airplanes have steadily been appreciating year after year. Try to find a decent RV-6 for under 50 grand, or a decent RV-4 for under 45 grand.... they just aren't out there that cheap.

You can call Cody - Cobra Doc - who wrote my insurance policy, I called him and got quotes well before buying this plane. The insurance was not only a factor, it was Key in deciding would I buy this plane or not. Timed out engine and all, if a 2 dollar part fails and I have to make a forced landing and total this bird, Cody will be writing me a check for 42 grand - well more than that to be honest, since I insured it at a higher value... -

The fact that I can't even get the coverage for a gyro right now due to me not being a rated gyroplane pilot, and then the high cost of the policy itself, plus the typically much higher purchase price of most two seat gyros, means it would cost me more to own a 25 grand used RAF than my RV that is worth almost 20 grand more. For the cost to own a typical 2 place gyro and have it insured and so on, I myself would rather have a airplane to take my friends for a ride and a single place gyro to fly for fun.

Part of my purpose in starting this thread is to discuss what others feel about the subject, and to possibly open some eyes to things some folks may not have considered or at least seriously considered. Some people are going to want a certain type of machine no matter what, and if that means owning it without insurance, then so be it. Scott H is a perfect example. He owns a helicopter that must cost several hundreds of thousands of dollars just to purchase, and then annuals must cost several thousands per year and just the fuel bill would put me in serious debt..... But he has no insurance on his bird. A sneeze during landing, a 2 dollar bolt breaking, anything really and his helicopter could end up a pile of scrap and he is out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. To him, the joys of ownership is worth it and he must feel there isn't that much risk anyway so why bother with insurance. Others here may feel the same way. But.....

I bet that there is many others here who would have to beg borrow and steal to come up with just enough money to buy something that may end up being over their means. Then one little goof up or some kind of mechanical failure and the nice machine they are up to their eyeballs in debt with is now a pile of twisted wreakage, and they are stuck with the debt still.

I am not trying to make Tim feel bad about his decisions, and feel very bad that what happened to him happened. He is a very good guy in a world of bad guys and assholes like me! But I feel that maybe a lesson to be learned or at least discussed is would Tim be as bummed if this had happened to his other much cheaper gyro? If the gyro had been insured would he be bumming? Think about KennyJ's little roll over a few months ago.... Just the blades alone were over 4 grand to replace. So a simple little screw up that we ALL are just as likely to have made or will make at some point, cost him at the very least 4 grand. For him it wasn't so bad, He is filthy rich anyway.... But for some of us regular people that would put us right out of business. Just saying we should weight out all the possibilities.

Ron and others.....call Kent Bond and check on his insurance. I was quoted a policy for my RAF which was very reasonable...and that was without a gyro rating. I can insure the passenger...again...for that miniscule $100,000.00 but...better than nothing. I was just getting ready to take out the policy....but had to pursue my SparrrowHawk...and that put off any insurance needs until late spring at the earliest.



Stan

Crash= bend over to grab your ankles....

Crash= bend over to grab your ankles....

Ron said:

"A sneeze during landing, a 2 dollar bolt breaking, anything really and his helicopter could end up a pile of scrap and he is out of hundreds of thousands of dollars."


Gee Ron, I am still looking to locate any bolt that only cost $2 on a Bell LongRanger..... The last "special bolt" I bought for it was $650 apiece!! The insurance decision is really tough on helicopters. I have been averaging about 100 hours a year in it. Hull insurance is 7-8 percent of value each year as a cost. That would mean $250 per hour just for full flight insurance. If I flew more, then maybe it would make sense, but not now. Fuel burn is 30 gallons per hour. I purchased the fuel last year prepaid bulk and, have a credit till I use it up at $1.35/gal so that is not terrible. But helicopters are just costly to operate if you are interested in saving money. The only thing is that it is worth nearly today what it cost new 25 years ago, and it has been flown 2 million miles(21,000 hours)! The one my partner took swimming was appraised after the crash for what we paid for it 3 years before and even though we put 500 hours of use more. A good used one holds its value.

On the other hand, a new kit gyro will loose money from the day you buy the kit. For that matter most experimentals fall under the same loss of value problem. If it is just about going and flying around myself, the gyro is unbeatable for pure fun for a hour or two of flying with total cost around 45-50 a hour including insurance, engine wear and fuel. I don't fly the gyro because it is cheaper, it truely is almost as much fun as a turbine helicopter, and less hassle to preflight and prep for a short cruise. On the other hand the Bell gets used for taking family trips to Northern California, Arizona, Las Vegas and the Grand Canyon, and taking business customers. Many people I have taken have never been in a helicopter before, and almost all would like to do it again. It also takes those aboard to unique places that only a helicopter goes, and few would ever see otherwise. IF you were to logically weigh the risk of taking passengers verus the liability, you would never take other than a family member (and most of them I probably would not either). However when I was very young, a family friend took me for a 30 minute ride in a Bell 47 for free, and it became a lifelong dream to fly since that time. So I especially like taking young people to share what it is like , so I can pass the same experience on. Korney-yes, Stupid , I know, but logic and risk don't always meet.

A example is today, I took a Grandfather and Grandson for a helicopter ride. The kids father was murdered, his older brother is in State Prison, his mother is barely making it and the "good" grandson has worked all summer helping his mom make ends meet. He goes back to school in a couple weeks, and has had no vacation at all this summer. He is 15 years old, and was smiling ear to ear talking about the ride along the beaches in Laguna and over Orange County. IT probably cost me more than $250 to do this, but the kid and Grandfather will remember this trip the rest of their lives . It was completely worthwhile.


Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH N79LR

Ron, you're right, you got a nice deal on your RV. I was just observing that a two-place experimental gyro for half that price is considered...NOT a good deal!

I met a guy recently who built a beautiful RV-10, the new Vans four-place. He said he knows a guy who's building one specifically for resale, because after about $80K in hard costs plus his labor, he can sell it for about $225K!

Chuck, if your comment was aimed my way, I appreciate the thought, but instructor availability is not a problem here, and I have the $$$ set aside. My CFI, John Hardy, has been on vacation with his family since I got back from Oshkosh. He'll be back at Sport Copter Monday, after which I'll be wearing out the logbook as fast as weather permits. Hey! If you're near Portland, you should drop by Sport Copter, say hello, and go up in Jim V.'s tandem!

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Gyro ROn

What do you mean by "But I have no rotorcraft rating"???????????

In South Africa if you don't have a rating for a aircraft you will not be allowed to fly it!!!!!!

Saraf