How to begin?

How many RAF instructors are there besides those 3?

Training in unstabbed RAF's

Training in unstabbed RAF's

Hello again guys,
I am in the northeast and have been considering training for years now. I have gone up with Jim only once and he seems to be a very good instructor.

If we can stick to simple pros and cons maybe we can avoid the name calling. The consideration I would make, which is part of my logic in not training in an unstabbed RAF, besides potential consequences, is that it may take an enormous amount of hours and you still may not master it. I do think, since listening to this forum for many years, there needs to be some general concensus from the PRA that unstabbed high thrust machines can be dangerous. Maybe there is something to this effect, I have somewhat given up on that web site. I found this very confusing in the beginning and have formed my own opinion from listening, as I think all newcomers should do. I also think a tactful warning is in proper order in some cases.

The other point, which probably everyone is aware of, but I see small improvement in, is the availablitity of instruction. There simply aren't enough, and they seem to mostly be in the south and west, then if one wants to train in a machine they will buy, it is even harder. I guess thats a PRA issue, which I have given up on.

John, your right on about one thing.... Training with Jim or Duanne or anyone with a unstable gyro will likely take more hours of your time and money to be signed off to solo than had you trained in a stable gyro. it is not out of line to say you will likely spend 2 to 4 hours of training time just learning the skills needed to keep a gyro like a RAF with no stab in check. That means your spending 300-600$ more at a minimum to train with these guys. That would buy a ticket to Florida and a hotel room for a few days....

If I were getting ready to train, I think I'd look at the 3 day training sessions in Olney Tx. or going to ROC and training there. ROC is supposed to have 3 instructors. I'd call first to make sure they're training and that they have time for you. I think it's better to go somewhere to get the training without distractions, near the airport with a couple of days for several flights.

This thread was for information about getting training to fly a Gyro and it's degenerated into another RAF war. My guess is that it was not only successful in stopping him from flying in a RAF but in stopping him from flying Gyros altogether.

I was in Duane Hunn's hangar during the short time he was located in Oklahoma. There was an RAF in there having a horizontal stab installed, and there was another stab ready to be installed on another machine.

Duane's explanation why they didn't need a horizontal stab was that the flexible mast absorbed the engine thrust, preventing a PPO.

I didn't go back.

Alan

The instruction situation is an economics problem. If you have a teacher-type personality (i.e. like to hear yourself talk), then giving instruction itself is actually rather personally rewarding, and even fun. It continually reminds you of why YOU like gyro flying.

Trouble is, it doesn't pay the bills. Here in the North, where the weather puts you out of commission for six months a year or more, you don't break even on the machine costs (at least if you count the IRS's mandatory depreciation). Never mind actually paying YOURSELF anything per hour. It BETTER be fun at this rate! You also better have a good day job, or a fat retirement setup, to subsidize the whole thing.

As has been pointed out here several times, most FW instructors are "doing their time" towards a better-paying commercial job. They're willing to work for coffee and doughnuts, temporarily. It's the modern form of indentured servitude.

Gyro instruction, OTOH, is not a building block for any other aviation position. For the person doing the instructing, the job stands or falls on its own merit.

Yet, unlike the oil companies, we can't just double our prices and expect the market still to be there.

I think the only way out of this box is the way that some manufacturers are already taking -- affiliate with good instructors and give the customer who buys a machine a deal on instruction. This insures the instructor a higher volume and may make it possible for the instructor to make more per hour, as the manufacturer shares the benefits.

Obviously, such a system can become corrupt. An instructor ideally is the student's "white knight," giving him/her the unvarnished truth about safety and survival in this very unforgiving environment. If the manufacturer has a defective product, the instructor is going to be tempted to soft-pedal the issue for his/her own economic survival.

Travelling to a training center maintained by one of the reputable manufacturers of a sound design is probably the answer for most people seeking instruction. It's not economically possible to have a gyro instructor in every county, or even every state. They'd all starve at once.

Obviously, such a system can become corrupt. An instructor ideally is the student's "white knight," giving him/her the unvarnished truth about safety and survival in this very unforgiving environment. If the manufacturer has a defective product, the instructor is going to be tempted to soft-pedal the issue for his/her own economic survival.

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great choice of words Mr. Doug. This is very true, and this is part of why some people here still don't think thrustlines and stabs are all that important. Their White Knight didn't show or tell them otherwise.

" This is very true, and this is part of why some people here still don't think thrustlines and stabs are all that important. Their White Knight didn't show or tell them otherwise. "

Or tells them this.

"Duane's explanation why they didn't need a horizontal stab was that the flexible mast absorbed the engine thrust, preventing a PPO. "

Training availibility is a major problem!!!!

Training availibility is a major problem!!!!

This is not meant as a Raf bash.

This is my experience in training with 5 styles of gyroplane.

A side by side non stab Air Command from 1990, that same machine with a flat plate stab, a stock Raf, a stock Raf with an Alan Loughrey “Effective” stab, and my almost CLT with stab, Hybrid.

Just replace Raf with seriously pitch unstable.

Students training in my stock Raf with an Alan Loughrey “Effective” stab, required approx. 30% less dual hours to become a better pilot than in my Stock Raf.

Students training in Hyrbrid required approx. 50% less dual than in my Stock Raf.

Students with previous fixed wing experience learnt quicker in Hybrid than the students without any previous flying experience.

Students without any previous flying experience learnt quicker in the stock Raf than the students with previous fixed wing experience.

If I was required to conduct 30 hours training, I would sleep easier if
I trained two people in Hybrid than one in a stock Raf.

Now this may just be my biased opinion!!!!

Aussie Paul.

It just makes good sense for the manufactures to support training. Turning all your customers into smoking holes in the ground doesn't sell your product well. The first step should be a factory located training CFI. This guarantees at least some control of the quality of training. If the manufacture won't even do this much, you have to wonder about the commitment to customer safety. The next step is a regional approach to several additional training locations/dealers. AAI has the right business plan, I hope they have enough sales and customers in the system to keep it going and growing.
In my case I received my gyro training at SportCopter in Oregon. It was not easy to travel to, the training was good and serious, but could have been better organized. The CFI was overworked between his regular job and the gyro training at the time(5 years ago). However when they signed me off for solo they let me fly their machine for transition training, a true showing of faith. I understand not many gyro instructors can afford to do this( makes you wonder a little how confident they really are in your abilities), but this is a common thing to do in all other types of aircraft training. It made flying for the first time in my single place much easier , and with greater confidence. A gyro manufacture may not like to loose a gyro to a student mishap, but probably can afford to do it better than a single instructor.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH

Roddy Presnell, Charley’s son, stopped by a few minutes ago.

Roddy soloed his father’s modified KB-3 after 10-15 minutes of dual instruction by Ernie Boyette.

At the time, Roddy was an Army OH-58 helicopter pilot so transitioning to a stable gyro required little more than a check ride.

Charley’s KB-3 had a Dominator tail and was fairly stable, even though it was not CLT. But was much closer to CLT than, say, an original AirCommand with inverted engine.

Roddy is now retired from the Army and flies an OH-58 for the St. Lucie County Sheriff’s Department. St. Lucie County is on the East Coast (Ft. Pierce, FL).

pwendell said:

I would sincerely like to hear a scientific explanation of HOW and WHY a stock RAF can be a safe and stable aircraft ftom Jim, Duane, and/or Dofin. They should be willing to post that information on this forum and to answer questions about it. I can only interpret their refusal to do so for more than three years as an admission that they can make no such explaination.

I am more than willing to be shown to be mistaken.

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Is there nobody out there who is willing to try and provide an objective argument and/or data to support the safety of stock RAFs? Those who promote the increased stability and safety of (near)CLT designs equipped with an adequate horizontal stabilizer are almost universally willing and able to provide sound reasons for their position. The failure of those who promote the safety of the stock RAF design to engage in an objective discussion of their position only makes that position appear indefensible. If Jim, Duane, Dofin and others who actively promote the stock the RAF as a safe design are unwilling or unable to explain their position in public, why should any of us pay any attention to their assertions, no matter how many flight hours they have?

Chuck & Ben,
What types of gryos do each of you fly? I am also looking at maybe getting a used, or new, RAF. I have been in demo flights with Jim for the last 3 years @ Fond Du Lac airport during the Oshkosh EAA airshow(just south of OSH 13 miles). I have been very impressed with Jim & his machine. The man has come accross me and being very diligent & thourough in his flying. He let me fly it for awhile each time also and i didn't seem to think it was hard at all to fly.- although i don't your know RAF's that well. I have been flying small Air Commands 503, 532 since the late 80's and love those machines as well, even with some engine problems with the snowmobile engines that are used. All though alot of the engine problems were earlier years of not knowing anything about them, the last decade has been really nice from the electronic ignition system.
But anyway, Chuck, give me your honest opinion of RAF's & whatever machines you fly.
Thanks
Corey

corey,

i will be flying a fuel injected subaru ea81 (i hope lol lol )on the back of a clt aircommand,

Ben, I find myself watching your little picture in the corner for minutes & minutes on end. Tough to get my mind back on gyrocopters. Being new here i bet you hear that all the time! You got a real picture of her, i mean your gyrocopter? if so post it here, i would like to see the machine. Also, what is your opinion of the stab required on the the new RAF's?
Thanks
corey

I'm resurrecting a very old thread, but I started it way back when - so I figure it's mine to resurrect. I'm hoping this time it doesn't go in the direction it went last time. It's now almost nine years later (and two kids later for a total of four now). I'd still like to fulfill this dream - has anyone heard of Jim Nardi (supposedly a CFI-gyro in my home state from http://www.angelfire.com/co/Chapter9/instructors.html#s7A )? Yes, I've sent him an email - just trying to determine if he's known here and if he can get a character reference (or not). Thanks again.