R22 full autos to the ground

My instructor wont allow a full auto to the ground with the R22...insurance reasons. I know some teach this and who here has experienced one? I watch them on you tube and I have just seen a run on landing.

Is there enough rotor energy after descending at 60 mph....flaring at a comfortable height for tail boom clearance....to completely stop forward movement and land with some reserve rotor energy? Or does it have to be pretty much executed perfectly to land with no forward movement?


Stan

Since I just posted my question..I have pretty much figured out that it is next to impossible to have a zero forward speed landing in an R22 auto when there is no wind present. I have watched several videos now...and havent seen one yet that didnt land less than 5 mph, but on the other hand a running landing isnt much of a big deal.

I am told that my Helicycle has much more rotor energy to weight ratio and it will be able to perform 0 speed landings.

Any Helicycle pilots here that can confirm or deny this?

Stan

The R-22 makes a very good trainer for pilots because it demands a light touch,
and a level of precision higher than the other ships commonly used as trainers.
Because of its light weight, there is relatively little stick shake, and the control movement, as you've no doubt discovered, is very small. In a hover,if you can see your hand move, you're probably over controlling. Many people who actually fly Robbies say that if you learn to fly in an R-22, you'll have no trouble transitioning to any other helicopter. I've had the opportunity to get a little stick
time in Bell 206's/OH-58"s and felt comfortable very quickly
The R-22 was intentionally built light to keep cost down, (I understand that Frank Robinson intended to sell it to high time professional helicopter pilots as a personal ship, it was not intended to be a trainer.) But to keep the weight down,
the rotor was kept light. The low inertia in a light rotor demands that autorotations be flown very precisely, flair too high and you run out of rotor rpm
and drop it in, spredding the gear or chopping of the tail. If you over flare or flair a little late, you can strike the tailboom. But the procedure can be learned doing power-on and making recovery of any errors much more predictable. The only rating witch requires full-down power off autos is the CFI. with that level of experience, it shouldn't bea problem, From what I've seen in the FAA accident reports, there have many more aircraft wrecked doing practice autos, than any other cause.
If your instructors prefers power-on recovery before actual touchdown, it's not a big deal, you're learning the procedure ant you will know how to perform it if you need it.
From what I've seen in the videos of the helicycle, the autos in it look easy and very forgiving, compared to the Robbie. But because the Robbie is so light, I think that you'll be comfortable making the switch.
Enjoy the R-22. Try to fly it as precisely as you can. It will teach you well.

R-22 full down autos

R-22 full down autos

The difference between a successful full-down auto in an R-22 and one in which you seriously damage the aircraft can be very small, and can also depend upon your luck with the nature of the surface below you. A little surface irregularity while you're sliding it on brings a big risk of a low speed roll over (you're not likely to get hurt, but you might have a really costly repair). That's another reason why most schools don't do them.

A full-down is not required unless you're going for your CFI rating, so training usually is limited to power recovery to a hover. If you ever are forced to do it for real, you'll be linking the autorotation approach and flare that you have practiced to a running landing that you've also practiced (but in this case, without power). Ideally, you'd like to still have forward airspeed (think translational lift and you won't be far off), minimal vertical speed, minimal ground speed, and maximum possible remaining rpm as you put it down. It's easier to hit that combination if you have some wind (note that in most videos, you can guess groundspeed but you can't really tell airspeed). If it's calm, you may be sliding it on rather rapidly with respect to the ground and that's risky. You also have to time things very well because there isn't as much energy to spare as in other types. Remember that the R-22 doesn't store much energy in the rotating mass and once you withdraw from that account with collective, you won't be getting it back. The kinetic energy from forward motion is your best friend until the moment of ground contact, and then you have to dissipate it without rolling over.

Just love posting questions here....what a "collective" bunch of knowledgeable rotorheads! Thanks.

Stan

Stan, if you try to practice touchdown autos, it is just a matter of time before you will be buying some expensive parts. Low rotor inertia helicopters are very unforgiving on timing. I have done about 20 touchdown landings when I was at the Bell Helicopter school in Texas. The Bell's are very forgiving with those big heavy blades, however timing is still critical, no instructor is going to be able to bail you out if the landing sequence is poorly executed near the bottom. Kind of sounds like a gyro landing.....except the cyclic you are holding in a new Bell cost almost one million dolllars more than a gyro!!

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

Stan,
Don't worry too much about the full down auto, concentrate on your auto entry being good. Remember that is the important bit. If things go quiet you have very little time to react in a low inertia rotored helicopter. Don't get this part right and you wont have to worry about the mount of run-on (it will be vertical).

Remember that you can make a bit of a mess of the flare and the cushioning with the collective and as long as you keep the heli absolutely straight with the pedals you'll probably pull it off.
On the other hand, you can you can do a real good flare and touchdown, let it go sideways a bit and you'll be climbing out the door trying to avoid standing on your instructor
Paddy

Stan, i think youll find, after all your gyro experiance, that a full auto to a 0 stop will be a pice of cake, coz you would have a feel for inertia already.
Wen ol mate did it, we came to a full stop only inches off the deck before he opened it up again, [ didnt touch coz it wasnt as flat as he thought at 300'], and i know we still had plenty of inertia left.
I was very supprised at how much time you do have ina R22, after hearn nuthn but doom from the pilots. But i spose, autorotation to the ground is kinda foren to them.

Birdys right, after flying the Sparrowhawk you wont have a problem, Ive only a bit of time on a sparrowhawk modified RAF2000 and the flare is not too different.

I remember my instructor warning me on the first auto as he demonstrated one I commented that it wasnt much different than chopping the throttle on my SparrowHawk....until the quick stop at the end.

I thought it felt like riding on a possums back jumping off a hayloft. Not much trajectory difference.:yo:

I am loving the auto practices......I have to wait till next Thursday though....he is booked solid till then.

Stan

StanFoster said:

I remember my instructor warning me on the first auto as he demonstrated one I commented that it wasnt much different than chopping the throttle on my SparrowHawk....until the quick stop at the end.

I thought it felt like riding on a possums back jumping off a hayloft. Not much trajectory difference.:yo:

I am loving the auto practices......I have to wait till next Thursday though....he is booked solid till then.

Stan

Click to expand...

Stan, the auto experience in the R22 is always interesting. I've been fortunate to have an instructor insist on going all the way onto the ground on several occasions having made sure of several practices to a hover first. I agree with comment that the entry is the most important bit otherwise forget the rest. I was also shown that keeping my index finger straight stopped the lever going right to the bottom gave better control and stopped overspeed. If you can do it in the R22 everything else is a doddle. I once had an instructor in the Bell 206 demonstrate the auto. He put it right onto the deck paused two seconds picked it up an moved it fifty yards!

These posts really teach a lot even if your not training!
Thanks, most excellent thread!!!

Stan,

My beliefs are quite different from those above. Because you are a helicopter owner and new to the aircraft class, I would strongly encourage that you find an instructor that will do MANY full-downs in the R22 with you. While I don't totally disagree with any of the other comments, the last few seconds of the auto is where it's at! Entry is a breeze, maintaining rotor RPM and proper airspeed equally so, but where you can screw it up is in the part that you're not getting to practice.

We aren't allowed to do full-downs in my company because of the same reason but I sure wish we could. Scott Heger said above, "Stan, if you try to practice touchdown autos, it is just a matter of time before you will be buying some expensive parts." This may be true but when the flame really goes out (especially when you're not expecting it to) is where the practice full-downs will pay dividends in NOT needing new parts.

Just my .02 cents. You don't need to find a new instructor, just buy a few hours with someone who can do full-downs and it will be worth the money.

Good Luck!
Scott

Stan,

National/Worldrss
Two die in helicopter crash near freeway
Friday, July 04, 2008 | 9:41 AM
AP

FREMONT, CA -- Authorities say two men are dead after a helicopter crashed near a Northern California freeway early today, knocking power lines into traffic lanes and starting a grass fire.

The California Highway Patrol says the helicopter crashed near Interstate 680 at Fremont. Officers and the fire department are on the scene and shut down one lane of the freeway.

Coroner's officials say they received word of two male victims.

A spokesman for the Highway Patrol says he doesn't know who owns the helicopter but says it doesn't't belong to law enforcement.

I'll second the recommendation to try & find someone who will do touchdown autos with you & buy a couple hours of dual. Those last few feet are the difference between balling up the ship or not, I think every pilot at least needs it demonstrated a few times.

I can also definitely understand why most schools don't do them in the R22, not much room for error. If it was my personal ship I'd probably feel the same way! Now, in a Bell 47 I'd do them all day long

Stan, maybe I can put this another way. Suggesting doing touchdown autos is like suggesting that it is ok to let a new helicopter pilot fly with limited CFI training , but never teaching how to fly to get to the ground from 5 feet. You may get lucky for awhile, but the end results will be expensive. This is a risky course to take if you are thinking of trying this on your own.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

Scott- Where did you get the idea I was thinking of doing autos in the R22 on my own? I sure didnt say that! All I asked was if they can land without forward speed. I wont be allowed to even practice power recovery autos when I am solo in the R22.

Stan

Stan , ease up, I never mentioned R-22's. As a guy that owns a helicopter I am saying practicing touchdown autos in any helicopter is risky, especially low inertia blade ones. That includes a Helicycle. That is why almost no flight school (except Bell)does them, the insurance companies forbids these maneuvers with students....with good reason.
That being said, there are many good ways to do touchdown autos, and many different profiles that can be used to exchange rotor energy for a successful touchdown landing. The profile used for the auto depends what is under you that is in your landing area. Frankly it seems by reading NTSB figures, more pilots crash helicopters practicing autos than about any other single reason, so all I am saying is just be careful when you get finished with your training and get out on your own, whatever you fly. Are you training in the R-22 to get a PPL-Helicopter, or just to learn for your Helicycle?

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH

JimLogan said:

Stan,

National/Worldrss
Two die in helicopter crash near freeway
Friday, July 04, 2008 | 9:41 AM
AP

FREMONT, CA -- Authorities say two men are dead after a helicopter crashed near a Northern California freeway early today, knocking power lines into traffic lanes and starting a grass fire.

The California Highway Patrol says the helicopter crashed near Interstate 680 at Fremont. Officers and the fire department are on the scene and shut down one lane of the freeway.

Coroner's officials say they received word of two male victims.

A spokesman for the Highway Patrol says he doesn't know who owns the helicopter but says it doesn't't belong to law enforcement.

Click to expand...

Jim, may I ask what on earth have you posted this here for ??
Are you trying to scare Stan off getting a helicopter license ? or do you think that this post will be of help to Stan.?

Scott: Thanks for the advice....it sounded like I was just going to go off and start doing autos on my own.:twitch: I have to solo in an R22 before they let me have a critical part of the rotorhead. So....since I dont have anything to fly....I will also fly my 10 hours solo off....and then I will be close to having my helicopter rating. I dont need the rating to fly my Helicycle...but it would be nice to have...and obtaining it will make me be a better helicopter pilot. I wont feel complete if I am flying my Helicycle without that rating.


Jims injection of the helicopter crash???? an auto gone bad????




Stan