Transponder Required?

I don't remember the details because I haven't gotten to this point on my Gyro yet so I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention. But when do you have to have a transponder? I know the rule about you don't need a transponder if your aircraft doesn't have an electrical system. However, I thought there was also a rule about you don't have to have one in a single seat aircrtaft. This weekend I was talking to a Helicopter CFI who said he wasn't aware of any rule that let single seart aircraft avoid having one. He even looked it up and at least in the section he was looking there was nothing that talked about singe seat airecraft. Can one of you more educated types point me in the right direction here?

It is not determined by the number of seats it is determined by the airspace you fly in. You are required to have a transponder in Charlie and Bravo but you can call the control tower and see if they allow you in anyways under constant radio contact There are friendly ATC guys out there!

What about the "Mode C Veil"? In my area (Houston) it extends out 30 NM and I would love to think if I stayed out of Bravo that I would not need a transponder. I am still not clear as to what defines an electrical system. Battery, starter, alternator?

Duh Huh!

Duh Huh!

Mode C is for those that wish to intercept a controled facility.
That can be done without a 4096 mode C"",,, But has to be called on a land line no longer than 1 hour from the time of entering and from where you are coming from. And have 2 way radio contact..

This also has to be signed off by an appropriate instructor.. Hense stay your self (ARSE) outta that area if you have no reason to go there.

IF there are aircraft in your area that fly's, Ultra Lites, Sport pilot etc.. They also are aware of this.. Follow suite and you will probably be ok... I said PRobably

Gyro's do not have enuff frontal signature to be even seen on radar.. But can be found if you bust the airspace after radio contact.

Ok BarnStormer (Tim).... Correct me with the proper FAR's and Numbers.

Thanks Gabor,,, seats don't count....

I've never heard the bit about the single-seat thing, not sure where that's coming from. I can't find it in the FAR. A controller seems to have some latitude in bending the rules in airspace under his control, so you could probably do about anything if the guy was bored and wanted to see a gyro do a fly-by of the tower.

The instructor sign-off sounds like a Sport Pilot (61.325) or Recreational Pilot (61.101) thing. As far as I can tell, a private pilot needs no such sign-off.

There's nothing unclear or mysterious about the electrical thing if you read the regulation! 91.215 exempts "any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider" from some of the requirements for the Mode C veil. So...when you got your airworthiness certificate, did the engine have a generator/alternator connected to the aircraft's electrical system, or not? Experimentals don't need to be recertified if they're modified, so I'd guess adding a rectifier/regulator after your inspection preserves the exemption. (But just a guess!)

But 91.215(b) starts out with, "Unless otherwise authorized and directed by ATC," so if the controller clears you for flight level 190, (Class A,) or to fly across the center of New York JFK, you're legal.

The bigger question for me is, why would you want to? I don't really care if my state allows powered skateboards on the freeway, it's just not safe. Especially as we move into the UAV era, and away from radar and into ADS-B for traffic alerts, I would expect controllers to get increasing cranky about people flying slow, transponderless toys wanting to mix it up with airliners full of people in their airspace.

Steve McGowan said:

Ok BarnStormer (Tim).... Correct me with the proper FAR's and Numbers.

Thanks Gabor,,, seats don't count....

Click to expand...

Paul beat me to it, Steve...

PW_Plack said:

The instructor sign-off sounds like a Sport Pilot (61.325) or Recreational Pilot (61.101) thing. As far as I can tell, a private pilot needs no such sign-off..

Click to expand...

Correct. Controlled airspace is a required component of Private.

PW_Plack said:

The bigger question for me is, why would you want to? I don't really care if my state allows powered skateboards on the freeway, it's just not safe. Especially as we move into the UAV era, and away from radar and into ADS-B for traffic alerts, I would expect controllers to get increasing cranky about people flying slow, transponderless toys wanting to mix it up with airliners full of people in their airspace.

Click to expand...

Paul,

I can't answer this question for Doug but I can relate it to my own experience.

My airport is in a Mode C veil. My AC447 gyro had no electrical system driven by the engine so I did not worry about having a transponder with it.

My first 2 place, the AC SxS was powered by an EJ-22 so it did have an electrical system. At that point in my flying carrier I could not afford to install a transponder and encoding altimeter. Therefore I would call CVG tower before I flew any direction other than directly out of the veil.

Eventually, the guy at the tower got tired of me calling and told me not to bother calling for just veil activity, he told me to just call if I planned on entering the class B airspace. If this ever happens to you, get the controllers name and record it in your log book along with the time and date.

Calling is easy, the people are friendly though they might be confused or surprised the first time you call in as so few people actually call in like they are supposed to.

Another thing to note is that if you are traveling in a group of aircraft you can have just one of those aircraft with a transponder. It counts for the whole group so long as you stay reasonably close together and within about 500 ft of alt. Controllers actually prefer this. Every time I have flown through CVG class B in a group we have all been asked to turn off our transponders except for 1 aircraft.

In the veil there is no real concern about mixing it up with faster larger traffic unless you are at a very great altitude that most gyros don't fly in.

I would advise getting a copy of your local TAC (Terminal Area Chart) this will show you the path the jets take in and out of the big airport. So long as you don't fly UNDER this path with out a transponder you are not likely to tick anyone off. If you fly under this path the controllers don't know what altitude you are at from the radar display and they will start wondering about diverting traffic 10,000 ft above you. Staying out of this area will keep you from mixing it up with the big aircraft.

I have done several photo shoots in class B and class D airspaces in gyros that had no transponders. I called up approach, asked permission and they were very nice. I only had one 'bad' interaction with a controller and that was at a class D. It was not a big deal and if anyone wants to hear the story I am happy to tell it.

When I was in the class B airspace they gave me a 'box' that I could fly in all day. I just had to tell them when I was done with the event and leaving the box to go home. It was great. I got to buzz around taking photos of a big national canoe / kayak race with jumbos flying on final overhead but no need to have every turn and movement approved through the tower. Because there was a small airport in my box I was able to fly all day through 2 shifts of controllers before I left. No transponder, just a radio.

I now have a transponder installed in my gyro. Even used transponder systems are not cheap. The transponder will run about $500-$900 used, the coding altimeter will be about $250, $25 for the antenna, the cables about another $150 and then the REQUIRED check of the install another $100. Then you will need to have the system re-checked by an av-shop every 24 months at $100 a check.

Ironically, there is a transponder related piece of equipment that I think is making our sky's LESS safe!

Lots of the local GA pilots have these 'warning' devices that tell them if another transponder equipped aircraft is nearby.


It seems to me that LOTS of the local GA pilots are getting VERY lax about looking out of the window now and are expecting these little boxes to keep them out of a collision!

When flying with Connie in the Piper Cub or the Skyboy last year we got cut off, sometimes IN THE PATTERN by GA aircraft that should have seen us clearly. When I fly with some of my GA friends I see them watching these devices and not scanning the windows like they should be.

This 'new danger' is something we have to deal with outside of the C veil and is very disturbing to me.

I have now installed transponders in all of the family aircraft but it was not cheap and I had to sell my waverunner just to cover 1/2 of the expense.

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Wrong Box ???

Wrong Box ???

Maybe instead of "transponder" was meant "ELT" ?

There is a single seat exception for them.

RockyMeLad said:

Maybe instead of "transponder" was meant "ELT" ?
There is a single seat exception for them.

Click to expand...

Rocky, bingo...that's probably where the confusion comes from. I generally don't think about regs regarding ELT, as they are not required in rotorcraft operated under Part 91, including small, experimental gyros.

(91.207 specifically requires them in "airplanes.")

Since I have to teach this stuff- I thought I would get you all in the right ball park when it does come to transponder requirements.
Here is the FAR.

§ 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.
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(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).

(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C–112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies—

(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;

(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—

(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and

(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider—

(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with §91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.

(d) ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:

(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.

(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.

(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the proposed operation.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120–0005)
[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34304, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91–221, 56 FR 469, Jan. 4, 1991; Amdt. 91–227, 56 FR 65660, Dec. 17, 1991; Amdt. 91–227, 7 FR 328, Jan. 3, 1992; Amdt. 91–229, 57 FR 34618, Aug. 5, 1992; Amdt. 91–267, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001]

From the FAA website- current as of March 28, 2010.

Ken

Thanks everyone for all the information. I think I've got it now (although reading that FAR still makes my head swim) I know it's asking a lot to expect the goverment to write things in a way the common person could understand instead of lawyer speak. I guess with enough times over it anyone can eventually understand it but it sures seems overly complicated to me.

Ken, I am a little slow, so what I understand is that any experimental gyroplane that is not certified with a certified electrical system even though it may have an electrical system that is not certified, can fly in the Mode C Veil as long as it stays at least 10 NM from class B, and C airports and out of class A. I personally cannot imagine flying any where near class D let alone B or C in a gyroplane without a transponder but under the mode C veil out in the fringe areas say 500 to 1000 feet agl, it seems it would be safe.

Steve Weir said:

Ken, I am a little slow, so what I understand is that any experimental gyroplane that is not certified with a certified electrical system even though it may have an electrical system that is not certified, can fly in the Mode C Veil as long as it stays at least 10 NM from class B, and C airports and out of class A. I personally cannot imagine flying any where near class D let alone B or C in a gyroplane without a transponder but under the mode C veil out in the fringe areas say 500 to 1000 feet agl, it seems it would be safe.

Click to expand...

If it was Certified Experimental and had an engine driven electrical system at that time. Then you will need a Transponder when required by the regulations.

You should have two documents for your Experimental aircraft. One has on it "Certificate of Aircraft Registration" the pink copy. The other (White Card) has on it "Special Airworthiness Certificate".

Here's some links to muddy the water a bit.

http://www.fly-ul.com/transponder/
http://www.fly-ul.com/transponder/Transponder.pdf

http://msquaredaircraft.com/page50.html

http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=125
http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=273

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Denied Access

Denied Access

Doug,

I was monitoring ATC in Salt Lake this weekend (salt lake approach). I heard an interesting exchange between an aircraft and atc:

"Understand you have done everything you can to correct your transponder not working, if you depart the Class B airspace you will not be approved access to return." ATC

"Callsign, roger, I will plan to land outside the Class B airspace" PILOT

My question is this, knowing you and knowing your dream, why not put it in? IMHO, the transponder does many things, EASILY unlocks airspace, improves safety, and compaired to the cost of your (beautiful) skycycle is a minor issue. Where you live so close to the Salt Lake Class B, wouldn't it be nice to be able to come and go or pass through as you please?

Incidently, I just picked up a new, in the box transponder on ebay for $1200.00.

I was just reading another thread that talked about gyro safety. In that thread there was talk of pilots CHOOSING to cut corners, take short cuts, and circumvent the regulations. Why not take the high ground, set the standards of being a professional aviator and do it right from the onset?

My suggestion, plan for it, budget it, and do it...it will make life so much simpler.

Just my 2 cents.

Stay safe!

It is clear to me that if I want to be able to fly, where ever I want to fly (as much as is reasonably allowed) and I want to do it as safely as possible, I really need to plan on installing a transponder. Since I will be flying a semi enclosed single place, panel space is going to be really limited, but there will be space available in the nose pod area to mount a box, it there a unit that is small and light and uses a remote mounted control head with the main box mounted separately? Anyone have any recommendations? I am not opposed to spending the money I need to spend to do it right. I am just trying to learn what I need to plan for.

Heath,

Have you installed your transponder yet? Did it come with an incoder and cables?

If not I bet your end cost will be close to $1600-1700.

Don't forget it is illegal to use it until it has been checked by a radio shop and the log book endorsed.

Now, don't get me wrong. I fly with transponders and I recommend anyone that can run one should get one, especially if you spend any time in a class C veil or under B/C airspace.

However, these devices are EXPENSIVE in relation to the cost of an average gyro. The cost of your setup will be about 40% of the cost of my first flying used gyro.

If you hangar at an airport on the EDGE of a C Veil like I do then it might be worth putting off a grand or grand and a half to make a call to the local ATC or ask for a letter so you don't have to call each time you just fly out of the veil.

However, if you are not willing to make the calls or get a letter that covers you for flying, or you are under the typical track of the traffic as it comes into the major airport a transponder really needs to be budgeted in.

I see price as the big barrier for transponders. If you make friends with your local radio shop and let them know you have an experimental aircraft you might find they can set you up with some used equipment after they upgrade someone's airplane. A sport pilot friend of mine did this and his patience was rewarded with a very nice full installation for under $800.

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GyroDoug said:

.... Since I will be flying a semi enclosed single place, panel space is going to be really limited, but there will be space available in the nose pod area to mount a box, it there a unit that is small and light and uses a remote mounted control head with the main box mounted separately? .

Click to expand...

Most transponders will allow you to install a remote IDENT button.

However, if ATC asks you to change your code you will need to be able to access the faceplate unless you have a full remote system.

If you do NOT plan on flying into the B/C/D airspace then this is of no concern as you only need to be able to turn the unit on or off. You can leave the numbers on the standard squawk the entire time you are in the C veil.

If you plan on flying into airspace that requires talking to ATC in the air, then it would be best to be able to change the number settings on the transponder. IMHO.

I don't know how ATC would react if you told them you can IDENT but not change the squawk code? I don't have any experience with this as it has never happened to me.

Perhaps someone with more ATC time could chime in on this.

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Since you are squawking VFR you'd be probably allowed. They usually have you change when you interact with IFR approaching traffic and they need to see you for separation. VFR flying will keep you below that traffic for sure! So I'd say 1200 is good for what you are going to use it for.

GyroDoug said:

...panel space is going to be really limited, but there will be space available in the nose pod area to mount a box, it there a unit that is small and light and uses a remote mounted control head with the main box mounted separately?

Click to expand...

Doug, take a look at this, also on page 9 of February Powered Sport Flying. It sounds like just what you've described: small panel-mount head with remote guts.

It's also "ADS-B out" capable, which may be a requirement in controlled airspace as soon as 2015, based on language in the Senate's FAA funding bill.

only $2K from aircraft spruce..

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/trigtt21.php

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